How would you define this kris

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 12:24 AM

Michel, I understand that as a French speaker you would prefer an Indonesian/French/Indonesian dictionary, however, the best dictionary for you would be, I believe, the two volume Echolls and Shadilly. Your English is more than adequate, and this dictionary is far and away the best in the marketplace. A new Indonesian/English dictionary appeared only a few months back, which has been promoted as the best ever, but it is expensive and I really don't think it is any better for practical use than Echolls and Shadilly.

I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from.

One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place.

A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye.

Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 01:15 AM

Incidentally, Michel, this keris has had its pesi added after the forging of the blade, hasn't it?

PenangsangII · 23rd August 2007, 03:18 AM

Sorry for the confusion everyone, and I think I need to further elaborate.

About the fighting keris statement, I said it was USUALLY, but not always. Even then, I think the keris is worthy enough for fighting. In Malay martial minds, keris is not to be clashed with or used to parry another weapon, even another keris. So, the fact that it only has 5 mm in thickness does not really matter.

The keris definitely has more than one metal composition, but the pamor metal is not contrasting type or in keris term pamor sanak. Sometimes only one type of metal used to forge a beko type keris.

Maybe the dapor jalak description is not the right choice of terminology for a Malay / Thai keris. If you look more closely, the middle section of the blade is a little wider compared to significant tapering from the base to the tip of say, a Bugis Sepukal, but not as wide to qualify as dapor jalak. Quite hard to explain, and I am sometimes confused myself

And Michel, Nik Rashidin is in a league of his own. I am just a simple collector of Malay / Indonesian weapons who started the hobby just couples of years ago.....

David · 23rd August 2007, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

The keris definitely has more than one metal composition, but the pamor metal is not contrasting type or in keris term pamor sanak. Sometimes only one type of metal used to forge a beko type keris.

I am not sure how you can tell this from pictures of a blade that is obvious out of stain. I have my doubts that this would turn out to be pamor sanak after a warangan treatment.
As for whether this keris would be "worthy enough for fighting", that simply is not the issue. Any semi-sharp and pointy piece of metal could be a useful martial aid in a pinch. But this "weapon" was obviously designed to be talismanic, not martial as can be seen by it's picit (pejetan) features.
Michel, i have been wondering, does the blade have a tight fit in the sheath or has it been adapted for this blade?

PenangsangII · 23rd August 2007, 03:55 AM

David, I agree with you that the keris is not designed for fighting, though to certain degree, is worthy enough.

In Malay keris culture, keris is a part of a complete dress and a (side) weapon. Having talismanic properties in the keris is a bonus

Also, no Malay would use warangan to stain or bring out the pamor of a keris. The use lime or pine apple juice will do just fine.

David · 23rd August 2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

In Malay keris culture, keris is a part of a complete dress and a (side) weapon. Having talismanic properties in the keris is a bonus

Also, no Malay would use warangan to stain or bring out the pamor of a keris. The use lime or pine apple juice will do just fine.

Certainly true, but i am having a hard time seeing this blade as having originated on the Peninsula, despite the dress it wears. That is what i have been hinting at with my line of questioning.

Keris with these features are generally not made to complete dress or act as a side arm. They're talismanic properties are not a bonus, they are it's purpose. I am not so sure that placing the blade in Malay dress changes any of that.

Also true about warangan. Though i didn't suggest Michel go this route himself, if this were mine i would choose that treatment. I merely pointed out that warangan could easily reveal the truth about this pamor. However, i would image that even a bit of lime would reveal without question that there is a contrasting pamor here, not pamor sanak.

Alan, your humor here has not gone unappreciated, but it can be a bit subtle at times. If you would make use of the emoticons you would increase your chances of everyone knowing when you are joking or being facetious.

ganjawulung · 23rd August 2007, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from.

One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place.

A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye.

Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.

I agree with Alan, this is not "sombro type keris",
Sombro type kerises are iras (one piece) type. And this is not. Things that people called "sombro type kerises" are usually very old and primitive. Almost no pamor or just "sanak" (not glitter). Please see these "sombro type" kerises (pictures) -- even they are probably made in different era. (Sorry, a little bit rusty. But someday, I'll clean them for you...). You may see the "spin" in the end of the pesi (tang) and also a hole or trace of hole in it.

The dhapur? Surely, this is a "brojol". The most simple dhapur in keris, with only one detail that shows the "gandhik" or front base of keris blade... The one with a hole in the gandhik, called "semar getak" or "semar betak" dhapur...

I agree with Alan too, about the stories on hole in sombro type kerises. In addition for the stories, some people in Java believed, that such "sombro type of kerises" were sold by Ni Mbok Sombro during the wandering (adventure) before becoming a well-known Pajajaran kingdom (West Java) empu. Ni Mbok Sombro, believed to sell these types of kerises in "pasar" (traditional markets, village market) as kitchen knives... This is just a peanut opinion, based on my simple knowledge on such kerises..

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 06:00 AM

Never heard the kitchen knife story. Bit too imaginative, I think. Blade with two edges in a kitchen? You'd need to be careful when you bit into a bit of tough meat that it wasn't your pembantu's finger.

ganjawulung · 23rd August 2007, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Never heard the kitchen knife story. Bit too imaginative, I think. Blade with two edges in a kitchen? You'd need to be careful when you bit into a bit of tough meat that it wasn't your pembantu's finger.

Maybe it is too imaginative. But at least your pembantu's finger will be safe. Just put the thumb in the gandhik, because not all the edge of the blade is sharp... Of course, put a wooden handle in the tang, before putting the thumb on the gandhik...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 08:24 AM

Ever seen the way women use a knife to cut big bits of meat and vegetables?

They place the cutting edge on the thing to be cut, then they put their other hand on the back of the knife and push down.

Two sharp edges = somebody with less than 10 fingers.

Wimmins don got no rispec fer nifes. Theys jes push the nife at the meat any ole how.

ganjawulung · 23rd August 2007, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ever seen the way women use a knife to cut big bits of meat and vegetables?

They place the cutting edge on the thing to be cut, then they put their other hand on the back of the knife and push down.

Two sharp edges = somebody with less than 10 fingers.

Wimmins don got no rispec fer nifes. Theys jes push the nife at the meat any ole how.

And what do you think about old "pangot"? Some pangot are from "budha" iron...

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 09:00 AM

In which way?

Can you phrase the question to address a specific question?

Michel · 23rd August 2007, 09:39 PM

Sorry for being so late in answering but but I had and still have, two grandchildren around and that takes time and attention. There has been a surge of exchange on this thread that is amazing. I will try to answer in the right order

Raden Usman Djogja : I join 4 photos of what I understood you wanted.They cannot be sharp all the way. I do not see luks along that blade but very tiny waviness along the edge of the blade if you look at it with one eye and a very small angle from strait along the edge.
I cannot treat it with warangan, as it not available here. What I could do is a lime/lemon acid treatment, but that is not enough, to my experience, to clearly reveal a pamor even a "pamor udan mas wengkon nguntu walang tumpuk" !
Sorry Usman, but after pamor udan mas, I do not understand. I really have to follow Alan latest advice and purchase the right kind of dictionary !

Alan: I will follow your advice ( as usual !) and try to find the Echolls and Shadilly Dictionary . Thanks for this advice.
Yes the pesi has been added after the forging of the blade and for all practical purpose I do not understand why and how they forge the blade without a proper pesi to hold it while hammering it? May be the original holding piece, that was part of the blade, broke and they had to heat weld a new pesi ? Alan, you know much better than most , how would you handle such a blade.

PenangsangII Yes Nik Rashidin was one of a kind, but not all what he said had to be taken for word of gospel, for two reasons, when he spoke English he was not at ease and often could not find the right word and second, what I understood may not have been what he meant to say !

David The sheath has been added later, it is of poor craftsmanship and it does not fit well the blade. in particular where the crescent/star is situated.

PenangsangII You say :"Also, no Malay would use warangan to stain or bring out the pamor of a keris. The use lime or pine apple juice will do just fine." I like that, as I cannot find warangan here. But theses two acids are not sufficient. My special advisor Nik Rashidin, gave me his formula without warangan and it worked on a Madura blade that I though without pamor but that finally had one.

At the end of this long discussion, I am a bit confuse about that keris.
In summary: it is a nice peninsular keris(Terengganu) , ganja iras, dapur brojol, pamor mlumah, forged for its talismanic properties with a little hole at the end of the pesi, (wall hanging or other reasons ')
Michel

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 11:21 PM

Michel, when you forge a keris blade, or any other blade for that matter, you do not forge the tang in to hold it whilst you forge the blade to shape.

With this blade, there are many possibilities, and I would prefer not to guess, that which I clearly cannot know.

With a keris you create a forging from which the keris can be be made, essentially by stock removal. The pesi is forged last of all, by various methods, but mostly by making a couple of cuts and then then forging the end of the bakalan down into a square peg that will become the pesi. Sometimes the pesi is not even forged---the end is left as an unformed lump, and the pesi is totally created by stock removal.

David, I'm sorry, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever use an emoticon.

The English language is a beautiful and complete language. It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world.

If some of the things that I sometimes write are less than obvious, it is because of my own lack of care in choice of phrasing to make those things obvious, or because of the inability of the reader to adequately understand the naunces which can occur in written English.

Because I am a charitable man I prefer to accept the blame for my own inadequacies in phrasing, rather than to point the finger at anybody's inadequacies in understanding.I would prefer to humble myself with an apology, rather than to use those horrible little emoticons.

23rd August 2007, 09:39 PM	#13
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Sorry for being so late in answering but but I had and still have, two grandchildren around and that takes time and attention. There has been a surge of exchange on this thread that is amazing. I will try to answer in the right order Raden Usman Djogja : I join 4 photos of what I understood you wanted.They cannot be sharp all the way. I do not see luks along that blade but very tiny waviness along the edge of the blade if you look at it with one eye and a very small angle from strait along the edge. I cannot treat it with warangan, as it not available here. What I could do is a lime/lemon acid treatment, but that is not enough, to my experience, to clearly reveal a pamor even a "pamor udan mas wengkon nguntu walang tumpuk" ! Sorry Usman, but after pamor udan mas, I do not understand. I really have to follow Alan latest advice and purchase the right kind of dictionary ! Alan: I will follow your advice ( as usual !) and try to find the Echolls and Shadilly Dictionary . Thanks for this advice. Yes the pesi has been added after the forging of the blade and for all practical purpose I do not understand why and how they forge the blade without a proper pesi to hold it while hammering it? May be the original holding piece, that was part of the blade, broke and they had to heat weld a new pesi ? Alan, you know much better than most , how would you handle such a blade. PenangsangII Yes Nik Rashidin was one of a kind, but not all what he said had to be taken for word of gospel, for two reasons, when he spoke English he was not at ease and often could not find the right word and second, what I understood may not have been what he meant to say ! David The sheath has been added later, it is of poor craftsmanship and it does not fit well the blade. in particular where the crescent/star is situated. PenangsangII You say :"Also, no Malay would use warangan to stain or bring out the pamor of a keris. The use lime or pine apple juice will do just fine." I like that, as I cannot find warangan here. But theses two acids are not sufficient. My special advisor Nik Rashidin, gave me his formula without warangan and it worked on a Madura blade that I though without pamor but that finally had one. At the end of this long discussion, I am a bit confuse about that keris. In summary: it is a nice peninsular keris(Terengganu) , ganja iras, dapur brojol, pamor mlumah, forged for its talismanic properties with a little hole at the end of the pesi, (wall hanging or other reasons ') Michel Attached Images

23rd August 2007, 12:24 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Michel, I understand that as a French speaker you would prefer an Indonesian/French/Indonesian dictionary, however, the best dictionary for you would be, I believe, the two volume Echolls and Shadilly. Your English is more than adequate, and this dictionary is far and away the best in the marketplace. A new Indonesian/English dictionary appeared only a few months back, which has been promoted as the best ever, but it is expensive and I really don't think it is any better for practical use than Echolls and Shadilly. I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from. One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place. A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye. Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.

23rd August 2007, 01:15 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Incidentally, Michel, this keris has had its pesi added after the forging of the blade, hasn't it?

23rd August 2007, 03:18 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Sorry for the confusion everyone, and I think I need to further elaborate. About the fighting keris statement, I said it was USUALLY, but not always. Even then, I think the keris is worthy enough for fighting. In Malay martial minds, keris is not to be clashed with or used to parry another weapon, even another keris. So, the fact that it only has 5 mm in thickness does not really matter. The keris definitely has more than one metal composition, but the pamor metal is not contrasting type or in keris term pamor sanak. Sometimes only one type of metal used to forge a beko type keris. Maybe the dapor jalak description is not the right choice of terminology for a Malay / Thai keris. If you look more closely, the middle section of the blade is a little wider compared to significant tapering from the base to the tip of say, a Bugis Sepukal, but not as wide to qualify as dapor jalak. Quite hard to explain, and I am sometimes confused myself And Michel, Nik Rashidin is in a league of his own. I am just a simple collector of Malay / Indonesian weapons who started the hobby just couples of years ago.....

23rd August 2007, 03:55 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	David, I agree with you that the keris is not designed for fighting, though to certain degree, is worthy enough. In Malay keris culture, keris is a part of a complete dress and a (side) weapon. Having talismanic properties in the keris is a bonus Also, no Malay would use warangan to stain or bring out the pamor of a keris. The use lime or pine apple juice will do just fine.

23rd August 2007, 06:00 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Never heard the kitchen knife story. Bit too imaginative, I think. Blade with two edges in a kitchen? You'd need to be careful when you bit into a bit of tough meat that it wasn't your pembantu's finger.

23rd August 2007, 08:24 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Ever seen the way women use a knife to cut big bits of meat and vegetables? They place the cutting edge on the thing to be cut, then they put their other hand on the back of the knife and push down. Two sharp edges = somebody with less than 10 fingers. Wimmins don got no rispec fer nifes. Theys jes push the nife at the meat any ole how.

23rd August 2007, 09:00 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In which way? Can you phrase the question to address a specific question?

23rd August 2007, 11:21 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Michel, when you forge a keris blade, or any other blade for that matter, you do not forge the tang in to hold it whilst you forge the blade to shape. With this blade, there are many possibilities, and I would prefer not to guess, that which I clearly cannot know. With a keris you create a forging from which the keris can be be made, essentially by stock removal. The pesi is forged last of all, by various methods, but mostly by making a couple of cuts and then then forging the end of the bakalan down into a square peg that will become the pesi. Sometimes the pesi is not even forged---the end is left as an unformed lump, and the pesi is totally created by stock removal. David, I'm sorry, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever use an emoticon. The English language is a beautiful and complete language. It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world. If some of the things that I sometimes write are less than obvious, it is because of my own lack of care in choice of phrasing to make those things obvious, or because of the inability of the reader to adequately understand the naunces which can occur in written English. Because I am a charitable man I prefer to accept the blame for my own inadequacies in phrasing, rather than to point the finger at anybody's inadequacies in understanding.I would prefer to humble myself with an apology, rather than to use those horrible little emoticons.