How would you define this kris

ganjawulung · 22nd August 2007, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

Thank you Alan,
For this translation of "nginden" in "chatoyant", definitively a French word that I understand. It is nice to know Indonesian when you collect krisses but my last attempt to learn Bahasa Malaysia (in 1994-1997) had such poor results that I concluded that it was a wasted effort. In my ignorance I thought that Indonesian was so close to Javanese that one could use one for the other and vice versa. I apologies for this error.

Michel

Bahasa (Indonesian) is close to Malaysian language. One language family, but have some differences in vocabulary, and also different "accent" in expressing the words in oral practice. (In analogy, maybe like the Swedish and Danish language). Many Malaysian words derived from English words, but Indonesian words are more influenced by Dutch words.

Indonesian grammar is quite simple, much more simple than anglo or latin language family. Conjugation, declination like in Latin, or French, Spanish, is also unknown in Indonesian language.

Javanese -- just one of hundreds of local slangs in Indonesia. An it is much more complicated than Indonesian. West Java, speak "sundanese" which is much much diferrent with "javanese" in Central Java. Some Central javanese even don't understand sundanese. So, usually they speak "Indonesian". Indonesian languange, is commonly spoken in the entire of Indonesia...

I hope this tiny information will help you...

Ganjawulung

Michel · 22nd August 2007, 08:52 PM

Hi David,
I do not like either my explanation concerning the little hole in the peksi, in particular its relation to royal families. With a few exceptions, these relations with the local nobility are just selling gimmicks. My information was not from a seller, but from Nik Rashiddin Nik Hussain, a famous master carver from Terengganu who had an extensive knowledge about keris. At 2 occasion he spoke about the little hole in the peksi:[/list]Once, about a keris lembing (also a leaf) produced in Terengganu and original of Majapahit only if with a little hole at the end of a twisted peksi.[list]The second time about a kris panjang minangkabau (south Sumatra) with the story about the royal Family.
I have never heard or read about the wall hanging explanation.
The little hole may have different reasons in the various parts of the Malay/Indonesian world ?
Could one of the knowledgeable person of the forum give us some light ?
Regards
Michel

Michel · 22nd August 2007, 09:01 PM

Thank you Ganjawulung,
for your explanation about Indonesian, Malay, Javanese.
In spite of the closeness between Malay and Indonesian, both countries utilize different words for the keris parts designation. The spelling, even in the same language, seems to be left to personal feeling. All this makes it rather complicate with my level of ignorance !
But I will follow Alan advice and purchase a good French/Indonesian dictionary !
Cheers
Michel

Raden Usman Djogja · 22nd August 2007, 09:51 PM

dear Kerislovers,

Simply, the uploaded image is very good and rare keris. It is like a high class sombro in Jawa. Ganja iras, seven tumbs, twisted with a hole at the end of pesi. Two things I still wanna know:

Firstly, may I see the pictures of this keris taken not from right or left side but from front and rear sides (from the shape sides). I would like to know whether this keris has 7 curves (luks). Some keris, even it is a straight keris, uniquely having luks (curves) if it is watched from front and rear of the shape sides.

Secondly, after stained with warangan, I hope this keris shows chatoyant and "pamor udan mas wengkon nguntu walang tumpuk". Excellent!!!

warm regards,
Usmen

David · 22nd August 2007, 10:22 PM

Usmen, do you think that in spite of the dress that this keris is of Jawa origin?
I agree that is a beautifully crafted keris.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 12:24 AM

Michel, I understand that as a French speaker you would prefer an Indonesian/French/Indonesian dictionary, however, the best dictionary for you would be, I believe, the two volume Echolls and Shadilly. Your English is more than adequate, and this dictionary is far and away the best in the marketplace. A new Indonesian/English dictionary appeared only a few months back, which has been promoted as the best ever, but it is expensive and I really don't think it is any better for practical use than Echolls and Shadilly.

I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from.

One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place.

A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye.

Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 01:15 AM

Incidentally, Michel, this keris has had its pesi added after the forging of the blade, hasn't it?

ganjawulung · 23rd August 2007, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from.

One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place.

A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye.

Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.

I agree with Alan, this is not "sombro type keris",
Sombro type kerises are iras (one piece) type. And this is not. Things that people called "sombro type kerises" are usually very old and primitive. Almost no pamor or just "sanak" (not glitter). Please see these "sombro type" kerises (pictures) -- even they are probably made in different era. (Sorry, a little bit rusty. But someday, I'll clean them for you...). You may see the "spin" in the end of the pesi (tang) and also a hole or trace of hole in it.

The dhapur? Surely, this is a "brojol". The most simple dhapur in keris, with only one detail that shows the "gandhik" or front base of keris blade... The one with a hole in the gandhik, called "semar getak" or "semar betak" dhapur...

I agree with Alan too, about the stories on hole in sombro type kerises. In addition for the stories, some people in Java believed, that such "sombro type of kerises" were sold by Ni Mbok Sombro during the wandering (adventure) before becoming a well-known Pajajaran kingdom (West Java) empu. Ni Mbok Sombro, believed to sell these types of kerises in "pasar" (traditional markets, village market) as kitchen knives... This is just a peanut opinion, based on my simple knowledge on such kerises..

Ganjawulung

Raden Usman Djogja · 23rd August 2007, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Usmen, do you think that in spite of the dress that this keris is of Jawa origin?
I agree that is a beautifully crafted keris.

David,

It is hard to say whether this keris is Jawa origin or not. Perhaps, I still need to have a look from front and rear and if possible after stained.

Alan said that this keris is not a sombro. However, I think if it is finally not a sombro, the influence of sombro type is obvious. I hope this is not either sombro or Jawa origin. Why? Because it will be very interesting then, at least, now it can be used as an evidence of inter-relation amongst empu in south-east asia.

As Alan said, I also have a curiousity that the kind of steel of its pesi and its blade are different. It will be easier to know it after stained with arsenicum.

warm salam,

Usmen

22nd August 2007, 08:52 PM	#2
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Hole in the Peksi Hi David, I do not like either my explanation concerning the little hole in the peksi, in particular its relation to royal families. With a few exceptions, these relations with the local nobility are just selling gimmicks. My information was not from a seller, but from Nik Rashiddin Nik Hussain, a famous master carver from Terengganu who had an extensive knowledge about keris. At 2 occasion he spoke about the little hole in the peksi:[/list]Once, about a keris lembing (also a leaf) produced in Terengganu and original of Majapahit only if with a little hole at the end of a twisted peksi.[list]The second time about a kris panjang minangkabau (south Sumatra) with the story about the royal Family. I have never heard or read about the wall hanging explanation. The little hole may have different reasons in the various parts of the Malay/Indonesian world ? Could one of the knowledgeable person of the forum give us some light ? Regards Michel

22nd August 2007, 09:01 PM	#3
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Indonesian Thank you Ganjawulung, for your explanation about Indonesian, Malay, Javanese. In spite of the closeness between Malay and Indonesian, both countries utilize different words for the keris parts designation. The spelling, even in the same language, seems to be left to personal feeling. All this makes it rather complicate with my level of ignorance ! But I will follow Alan advice and purchase a good French/Indonesian dictionary ! Cheers Michel

22nd August 2007, 09:51 PM	#4
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	dear Kerislovers, Simply, the uploaded image is very good and rare keris. It is like a high class sombro in Jawa. Ganja iras, seven tumbs, twisted with a hole at the end of pesi. Two things I still wanna know: Firstly, may I see the pictures of this keris taken not from right or left side but from front and rear sides (from the shape sides). I would like to know whether this keris has 7 curves (luks). Some keris, even it is a straight keris, uniquely having luks (curves) if it is watched from front and rear of the shape sides. Secondly, after stained with warangan, I hope this keris shows chatoyant and "pamor udan mas wengkon nguntu walang tumpuk". Excellent!!! warm regards, Usmen

22nd August 2007, 10:22 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Usmen, do you think that in spite of the dress that this keris is of Jawa origin? I agree that is a beautifully crafted keris.

23rd August 2007, 12:24 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Michel, I understand that as a French speaker you would prefer an Indonesian/French/Indonesian dictionary, however, the best dictionary for you would be, I believe, the two volume Echolls and Shadilly. Your English is more than adequate, and this dictionary is far and away the best in the marketplace. A new Indonesian/English dictionary appeared only a few months back, which has been promoted as the best ever, but it is expensive and I really don't think it is any better for practical use than Echolls and Shadilly. I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from. One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place. A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye. Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.

23rd August 2007, 01:15 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Incidentally, Michel, this keris has had its pesi added after the forging of the blade, hasn't it?