How would you define this kris

lemmythesmith · 19th August 2007, 05:50 PM

Hi Michel, interesting blade! I've had a change in colour similar to your blade and it's generally the border between hard and soft metal when the blade has been heat treated to harden and temper it, almost like a "hamon"

Michel · 19th August 2007, 06:15 PM

Hi lemmythesmith,
A bit difficult to understand the strange position of this heat treatment ! No ?
Basically, I think you are right, the difference of colour is due to heat, but was it really a treatment to harden the metal or is it just an error ?
The forging is well done, look at the peksi, with its little hole and the heatwelding to the blade and the pamor, is not a simple one. I would love to be able to forge such a pamor .
I just do not understand that colour change.
Regards
Michel

lemmythesmith · 19th August 2007, 07:36 PM

I think it probably is the border between hard and soft metal, from what I've read on the forums(and it seems logical) the heat treatment is kept well away from the peksi which would be a weak point if made too hard. That pamor certainly is a nice one-grooves are cut with a file across the blade then the whole blade is flattened to bring the "veins" of metal in the bottom of the grooves to the surface. I'm currently building a patrem at the moment and thats how I got a similar pamor to your blade, the "stripes" look almost 3D in the right light. Cool!!!

simatua · 20th August 2007, 06:25 PM

....Amost 3D ??
....absolute 3D !!

" This 'reflection' pattern, also a by product, precisely follows laddered grooves originally filed across the blade and reforged flat to create a pamor pattern with a series of adjacent concentric ellipses "
source :The world of the Javanese keris / Garret and Bronwen Solyom

The Javanese call this Nginden

* beautiful to look at,... for over and over again; play with the light in the sun or candle
* hard to find

nice
gr
martin

Michel · 20th August 2007, 08:38 PM

Hi Simatua,
Thank you for the reference to The world of the Javanese keris / Garret and Bronwen Solyom. I knew I had seen this pattern somewhere but could not remember where. Now the photo N° 57 , page 20 of the above mentioned book, shows a blade that is slightly blurred and I cannot really say that it is similar to mine. Solyom name it a pamor mlumah. Where from is your name of : Nginden ?
Do you speak bahasa Indonesia. Some Dutch people do.
When looking closely to my blade, I can see that the finger marks where hammered on a very hot blade, the opposite side of each finger marks being leveled on the anvil.

Lemmythesmith,
congratulation if you have forged such a pattern, you must master the heat welding fairly well. I understand the ladder filing, but what is the shape of the ingot and how are the metal layers ?
I have looked in Keris Jawa, Antara mistic dan Nalar (all in Javanese that I cannot understand) but have not found a similar pamor.

Thanks to both of your for your comments
Regards
Michel

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2007, 11:40 PM

"nginden" means "chatoyant"---like a cat's eye. It looks different depending on the angle of the light---you can see this clearly demonstrated in photo # 55,56.

Yes, Solyom names the pamor in photo #57 as a mlumah pamor, which means it has been constructed with the pamor layers in the same plane as the core, that is, laying down on the core, rather than standing up on the core. Your blade, Michel, has had the basic pamor constructed by a "miring" technique, whereby the pamor layers have been manipulated in the forging process so that they are standing at (more or less) right angles to the core of the blade.

Both the blade shown by Solyom as #57, and your blade have then had the grooves cut in the face of the forging before the forging has been forged out to shape.

Haryono Haryoguritno's book is written in Indonesian, not Javanese. Indonesian is not a particularly difficult language, and dictionaries are easily obtained. You will not be able to read the book just by using a dictionary, but you could understand sufficient to read the photo captions.

PenangsangII · 21st August 2007, 09:56 AM

A nice keris with unique pamor indeed.

I reckon that this keris is called keris Beko by the Peninsular Malaysians and the Southern Thai, since this keris originated from those areas.

Sepukal in Malaysian / Thai context is actually a generic term for straight kerises, and it can be divided into several categories, i.e. the claw like Bugis Sepukal, the slim Pandai Saras Sepukal, the Tok Chu Sepukal, Charita Sepukal, Beko Sepukal etc.

19th August 2007, 06:15 PM	#2
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Heat treatment ?http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=51 Hi lemmythesmith, A bit difficult to understand the strange position of this heat treatment ! No ? Basically, I think you are right, the difference of colour is due to heat, but was it really a treatment to harden the metal or is it just an error ? The forging is well done, look at the peksi, with its little hole and the heatwelding to the blade and the pamor, is not a simple one. I would love to be able to forge such a pamor . I just do not understand that colour change. Regards Michel Attached Images

20th August 2007, 06:25 PM	#4
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	Nginden ....Amost 3D ?? ....absolute 3D !! " This 'reflection' pattern, also a by product, precisely follows laddered grooves originally filed across the blade and reforged flat to create a pamor pattern with a series of adjacent concentric ellipses " source :The world of the Javanese keris / Garret and Bronwen Solyom The Javanese call this Nginden * beautiful to look at,... for over and over again; play with the light in the sun or candle * hard to find nice gr martin

21st August 2007, 09:56 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Sepukal A nice keris with unique pamor indeed. I reckon that this keris is called keris Beko by the Peninsular Malaysians and the Southern Thai, since this keris originated from those areas. Sepukal in Malaysian / Thai context is actually a generic term for straight kerises, and it can be divided into several categories, i.e. the claw like Bugis Sepukal, the slim Pandai Saras Sepukal, the Tok Chu Sepukal, Charita Sepukal, Beko Sepukal etc.

19th August 2007, 05:50 PM	#1
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Michel, interesting blade! I've had a change in colour similar to your blade and it's generally the border between hard and soft metal when the blade has been heat treated to harden and temper it, almost like a "hamon"

19th August 2007, 07:36 PM	#3
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	I think it probably is the border between hard and soft metal, from what I've read on the forums(and it seems logical) the heat treatment is kept well away from the peksi which would be a weak point if made too hard. That pamor certainly is a nice one-grooves are cut with a file across the blade then the whole blade is flattened to bring the "veins" of metal in the bottom of the grooves to the surface. I'm currently building a patrem at the moment and thats how I got a similar pamor to your blade, the "stripes" look almost 3D in the right light. Cool!!!

20th August 2007, 08:38 PM	#5
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Nginden Hi Simatua, Thank you for the reference to The world of the Javanese keris / Garret and Bronwen Solyom. I knew I had seen this pattern somewhere but could not remember where. Now the photo N° 57 , page 20 of the above mentioned book, shows a blade that is slightly blurred and I cannot really say that it is similar to mine. Solyom name it a pamor mlumah. Where from is your name of : Nginden ? Do you speak bahasa Indonesia. Some Dutch people do. When looking closely to my blade, I can see that the finger marks where hammered on a very hot blade, the opposite side of each finger marks being leveled on the anvil. Lemmythesmith, congratulation if you have forged such a pattern, you must master the heat welding fairly well. I understand the ladder filing, but what is the shape of the ingot and how are the metal layers ? I have looked in Keris Jawa, Antara mistic dan Nalar (all in Javanese that I cannot understand) but have not found a similar pamor. Thanks to both of your for your comments Regards Michel

20th August 2007, 11:40 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	"nginden" means "chatoyant"---like a cat's eye. It looks different depending on the angle of the light---you can see this clearly demonstrated in photo # 55,56. Yes, Solyom names the pamor in photo #57 as a mlumah pamor, which means it has been constructed with the pamor layers in the same plane as the core, that is, laying down on the core, rather than standing up on the core. Your blade, Michel, has had the basic pamor constructed by a "miring" technique, whereby the pamor layers have been manipulated in the forging process so that they are standing at (more or less) right angles to the core of the blade. Both the blade shown by Solyom as #57, and your blade have then had the grooves cut in the face of the forging before the forging has been forged out to shape. Haryono Haryoguritno's book is written in Indonesian, not Javanese. Indonesian is not a particularly difficult language, and dictionaries are easily obtained. You will not be able to read the book just by using a dictionary, but you could understand sufficient to read the photo captions.