A Kampillan...But Moro???

[Dajak]

Drawing

[VVV]

We discussed those pictures in this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2820

I suspect when Hein writes Sun dayak it's the Dusun tribe. And that he mixed up the Dusun with their neigbours the Bajau tribe. At that time most of the Illanun had disappeared because of intermarriage with the Bajau according to Ivor Evans' book mentioned in the thread above.
I find Evans' several years of anthropological field research in Sabah better for separating the tribes than Hein's armchair studies.

On the tiger bell issue I agree with Ben. I find it hard to believe that all the large Kampilan with tiger bells you see now and then are Bagobo?

Michael

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by VVV

We discussed those pictures in this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2820

I suspect when Hein writes Sun dayak it's the Dusun tribe. And that he mixed up the Dusun with their neigbours the Bajau tribe. At that time most of the Illanun had disappeared because of intermarriage with the Bajau according to Ivor Evans' book mentioned in the thread above.
I find Evans' several years of anthropological field research in Sabah better for separating the tribes than Hein's armchair studies.



Michael

Michael Evan s did not study the indonesian and Borneo swordhandle s

Only the malay people as far as I can see


and it is also relevant wich time they study because 20 years difference make s a lot off differens between the aerea wich what was going on and there where also sulu s
living in the North part off Borneo .
I can t find nothing that he mean sundajaks that they are Dusun otherwise he would call them like it.
He is the only one that pictured the handle off the rare parang sankit .
I cannot find that in Evans books .

The Ethnographic Classification of the Dusun-Speaking Peoples of Northern Borneo
George N. Appell, Robert Harrison
Ethnology, Vol. 8, No. 2 (Apr., 1969), pp. 212-227
doi:10.2307/3772983


Ben

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

Originally Posted by Dajak

Michael Evan s did not study the indonesian and Borneo swordhandle s

Only the malay people as far as I can see

Hein didn't visit Borneo but made his studies in European museums and libraries.
Evans based his research both on older local sources as well as field studies among the different tribes.
Visiting villages and interviewing f.i. swordmakers about what weapons they produced and what weapons their ancestors produced.
He also researched what weapons that were used by the different tribes and where they came from if not locally made.
Evans' book is focused on in depth describing the Dusuns (p. 79 - 193) and the Bajau & Illanuns (p. 194 - 273).

Originally Posted by Dajak

and it is also relevant wich time they study because 20 years difference make s a lot off differens between the aerea wich what was going on and there where also sulu s
living in the North part off Borneo .
I can t find nothing that he mean sundajaks that they are Dusun otherwise he would call them like it.
He is the only one that pictured the handle off the rare parang sankit .
I cannot find that in Evans books .

Hein based the name Sundajak (see note 2 on page 348) on the publication by Dr Eduard Sonne; Die Bewohner Britisch-Nord-Borneos mit besonderer Berücksichtigung der Badjohs, Tumbonoas und Sundajaks (1893).

Badjohs is probably Bajaus. Tumbonoas is probably Tambatuan (which isn't a tribe but a district inhabitated by the Dusun tribe) and I find it quite probable that Sun is Dusun.
The reason for that is that no other source I have read about dayak tribes in North Borneo mentions the existence of any tribe named Sun.
If it exists, or ever existed, please give me a reference for this and I will of course change my conclusion?
I have gone through the major 6 works on Sabah Dayak tribes but found nothing on any tribe called Sun.
Also it would be extremely strange if Sonne didn't include the Dusun when describing major tribes in ex-British North Borneo?
That would be like neglecting Iban if describing tribes in Sarawak.

The reason Evans don't mention Parang Sangkit is that he doesn't write about the Muruts in his book.
Hein isn't 100% impressing on this as he isn't sure if the Sangkit is from Borneo or Sulu (see p. 343) ...

Originally Posted by Dajak

The Ethnographic Classification of the Dusun-Speaking Peoples of Northern Borneo
George N. Appell, Robert Harrison
Ethnology, Vol. 8, No. 2 (Apr., 1969), pp. 212-227
doi:10.2307/3772983


Ben

Please explain how this, probably interesting, article contributes to our discussion?

What's interesting is that Evans describes the weapons of Dusun as "largely procured from other tribes".
He lists the pida (barong), the pedang, parang ilang/gayang and sundang/serundang/kris as the Dusun swords - not the kampilan.

In the Bajau & Illanun weapon descriptions he writes (p. 253-254):

"...while the long Illanun sword, the kompilan, with its curiously carved and flattened handle, and its blade, narrow near the hilt, but broad and heavy at the point, came from Mindanao, the place of origin of the Illanuns themselves. Types of handle and blade somewhat similar to that of the kompilan are, however, found in islands farther to the east, notably Celebes and Timor."

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael
The Murut s was an large group off people from North Borneo so Evans did only a very small aerea of North Borneo and as you can read is that by travalling there people make mistakes so why is Evans right and the others that study and and visit long time before Evans are wrong .
Hein make an study same as Zonneveld did .
Take a look at the pakayuns they larger that any mandau or parang from North Borneo how could it be Evan did not see it ???
Can you explain that to me .


Ben

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

We are discussing the Kampilan and Borneo tribes that used the Kampilan.
I don't mind discussing the Murut but then I think it's more proper that we should do it in another thread than this.

1. Are you claiming that studying the Murut shares some insight in the distribution and use of the Kampilan in North Borneo?

2. Ling Roth is one of the 6 sources I have used to see if there ever existed a tribe called the Sun Dayak.
Ling Roth lists all tribes and sub-tribes in detail but doesn't mention the Sun Dayaks.
Have you fund any proof of that there ever existed a tribe in North Borneo named Sun, unless it's another name of the Dusun?

3. Of course nobody is perfect but in what way is Evans wrong regarding Kampilan and Dusun vs Bajau & Illanun?

Studying from other sources alone, like Hein and van Zonneveld, is of course dependant on the quality of the sources and the understanding of them. There is often a higher risk of misunderstandings than doing your own research on the field, as Evans did.
The same for us two (even if I have at least visited North Borneo twice and met the tribes IRL, but unfortunately after they stopped using the Kampilan.).


Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael what I am trying to say that it is mostly time blocks like 1800-1825
1825-1850 in movement and changes like from kampilan / mandau to gun .

....tribes disapear .....

....new tribes coming .....

So that is always difficult I never visit Borneo but now a little bit more about the mandau Jimpul than most off the people that live there (Because now they make shows overthere to please the tourist people)so that is no excuse If some one has been there or not it is only an time moment ( I did visit bali in 2001 and in 2006 and did see a lot off difference in only 5 years ,
what you think there will more difference if I wait 25 years .

The best mandau Jimpuls Kampilans are out side Borneo / Philipine why the wood from the old mandau or kampilan suvived because they where taken early from there)

Stone did thell the kampilan is used bij the seadajaks he might have seen a few with kampilan s it is also not sure if the kampilan find his roots in the philipine we do not now 100 % maybe it was coming from celebes timor and developt bij the philipine people there is not 100% proof.

It is always hard to find out the right tings mostly many idea s and if Evans say so maybe hein tell different but who to believe .


(maybe we want Evans to belive because we like his story but is it true Evans did go out by him self
Hein did take a few people that have been there and study so I am like more a few people telling somthing than only stay with one person .)

And if we take a look at the map we can see that Evans not get an great area because he would have seen that the murut s are there would also tell some about the murut s .

some pic s off my kampilan I think this one is from Boneo

Ben

[Dajak]

Here some pics off dajak kampilans

[Battara]

VVV,

I am not necessarily saying that all kamkpilans with tiger bells are Bagobo, but that many with these can be Bagobo or Bagobo influenced, although I had forgotton about Borneo, where trade was common.