Bali Keris for classification

VVV · 16th August 2007, 03:13 PM

Hi Ganja,

Thanks for your comments.
Do you know anything about the symbolism/attributes of a Garuda-Naga?
I have also been told that another name of it is a Naga Lar Seluman Kenci (sorry if the description words are in the wrong order as my Indonesian language abilities are mostly used for ordering food?).

Michael

drdavid · 18th August 2007, 06:39 AM

According to Karsten's krisdisk

Quote:

If the neck of the Naga is equipped with wings, which is rarely seen, it is called Dapor Lar Munda (Lar= wing and Munda=snake)

Could that be what we are seeing here or am I being a bit thick. It is not clear in the krisdisk as to which geographical keris region this name applies
cheers
DrD

VVV · 19th August 2007, 09:30 PM

Doc,

So it says.
I am not sure if the visible teeth and tongue or the wings is what decides the name in case both are there at the same time?

Michael

ganjawulung · 22nd August 2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdavid

According to Karsten's krisdisk

Could that be what we are seeing here or am I being a bit thick. It is not clear in the krisdisk as to which geographical keris region this name applies
cheers
DrD

Dear doctor,
I don't think that "Lar Munda" is the correct spelling nor the correct term. What I know is, dhapur "Manglar Munga" is three luks keris, with ornament in the gandhik or front lower base -- elephant with wings. Some people called this dhapur as "Gajah Manglar" (elephant with wings). Yes, it is a rare dhapur... But Lar Munda is unknown.

"Lar" is a javanese word for "wing". But "munda", I don't think this is a correct word, neither in Indonesian nor Javanese language.

Ganjawulung

VVV · 22nd August 2007, 07:44 PM

Thanks Ganja for taking your time and explaining the details!
Obviously my source for Kenci/Kentji was wrong as I was told that it meant fang.
I am a bit surprised on Naga as a Chinese influence.
This is originally a Sanskrit word, and an Indian mythological creature.
That's why I thought it was more connected to the Hindu snakedragon than the Chinese dragons also in Indonesia?
But maybe there are several explanations to the same symbol?

Michael

David · 22nd August 2007, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I am a bit surprised on Naga as a Chinese influence.
This is originally a Sanskrit word, and an Indian mythological creature.
That's why I thought it was more connected to the Hindu snakedragon than the Chinese dragons also in Indonesia?
But maybe there are several explanations to the same symbol?

I have come to believe that there always is more than one explanation with anything to do with keris.

That being said it has always been my belief and understanding that the naga is indeed of Indian Hindu origin.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 12:01 AM

The idea of the Naga is widespread in Asia. Yes, origin is Hindu, and from there into Buddhism. It is a Sanscrit word and in Sanscrit it means a being that is in the form of a large snake. There are a number of Nagas, probably most important amongst them is Vasuki or Basuki, who is the essence that binds the earth. In the Gita, Krishna when explaining how he could be everywhere at the same time said that as a serpent he was Vasuki.

To those who are not familiar with Hindu beliefs, it is easily understandable that the Naga can be taken as the dragon and as such as a symbol of China. Cirebon was founded fairly recently, around 1470 or 1480 I think, and as a Muslim state. That the founders of Cirebon took the Naga as a symbol of China is perfectly understandable.

The presence of the Naga image on the keris goes far beyond the simplistic icon of direct relationship. For those with an interest in this I suggest an indepth look at the way in which Hindu beliefs developed in Bali up until the European domination of that island.

In Hindu mythology the Nagas were the enemies of the Garuda.Nagas were subterranean, Garudas flew.Pretty obvious.Possibly of more interest is the fact that the value of winged Naga and a winged elephant is numerologically the same.

The word "naga" itself deserves extended study, as it can be applied in many meanings, depending on the language, place and context.

Regarding the two words "munda" and "kenci".

Is it possible that the word "munda" is in fact "mundhak"--- to become greater? Let us not forget Mr. Jensen's sources; it would be very easy for such a name to arise from these sources, and would be perfectly understandable. In fact, depending on the source involved, it could even be correct, but correct at the time and place of its origin, which is not to say that it would be recognised in present day Jawa.

To somebody unfamiliar with the Javanese language "mundhak" would sound as "munda".

"Kenci" is in fact a legitimate word in Javanese, it is a singkatan ( abbreviation) for "kertu cilik"---"small card", and refers to the small playing cards that are used in dominoes and other card games. However, I sincerely doubt that it has an application in reference to anything at all to do with the keris.

ganjawulung · 23rd August 2007, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The idea of the Naga is widespread in Asia. Yes, origin is Hindu, and from there into Buddhism. It is a Sanscrit word and in Sanscrit it means a being that is in the form of a large snake. There are a number of Nagas, probably most important amongst them is Vasuki or Basuki, who is the essence that binds the earth. In the Gita, Krishna when explaining how he could be everywhere at the same time said that as a serpent he was Vasuki.

To those who are not familiar with Hindu beliefs, it is easily understandable that the Naga can be taken as the dragon and as such as a symbol of China. Cirebon was founded fairly recently, around 1470 or 1480 I think, and as a Muslim state. That the founders of Cirebon took the Naga as a symbol of China is perfectly understandable..

The opinion above is what written in Mr Rokhmin Dahuri's book that I mentioned. But according to "wayang" (javanese traditional puppet leather) story, naga figure known as "Antaboga". (See the picture, Central Java version and West Java version).

Sang Hyang Antaboga, or Sang Hyang Nagasesa or Sang Hyang Basuki is the ruler of the base of the earth. His royal palace called Kahyangan Saptapratala, or 7th layer in the base of the earth. His wife was named as Dewi Supreti, and had two children: Dewi Nagagini and Naga Tatmala. Although the palace in underneath the earth, the story of wayang told us that the situation is almost the same as in the other "kahyangan" above or on the earth...

And the garuda figure, in the wayang story, called as "Jatayu" or "Jetayu". This jumbo bird figure, was dead because of fighting with king of Alengka, Dasamuka who was kidnapping the wife of Rama, Dewi Sinta... (See the picture)

Hope this information is useful for you...

Ganjawulung

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

To somebody unfamiliar with the Javanese language "mundhak" would sound as "munda".

"Kenci" is in fact a legitimate word in Javanese, it is a singkatan ( abbreviation) for "kertu cilik"---"small card", and refers to the small playing cards that are used in dominoes and other card games. However, I sincerely doubt that it has an application in reference to anything at all to do with the keris.

Yes, "mundhak" is a very very common word in Java. For instance, "mundhak gedhe" means becomes bigger, or "mundhak cilik" means becomes smaller... But, "lar munda"? I am still in my opinion: this is not the correct term for a certain dhapur in keris. "Lar munga" maybe acceptable, for mentioning the "manglar munga" dhapur with figure of naga and garuda...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 22nd August 2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Do you know anything about the symbolism/attributes of a Garuda-Naga?

Dear Michael,
As far as I know, motives in keris symbolized the influence of certain culture or cultures from outside Java in their past history. As in Cirebon (Islamic kingdom in West-Central Java, in 15th century). The had their royal chariot, named as "paksi-naga-liman" (garuda/bird-naga-elephant) which was the ornaments of such symbolism. According to the reliable source, paksi-naga-liman symbolized the influence of three external cultures: Egypt (paksi), China (naga), India (liman or elephant). Please see this book "Budaya Bahari: Sebuah Apresiasi di Cirebon" (Maritime Culture: An Appreciation in Cirebon) by Prof Dr Rokhmin Dahuri MS (2001, State Printing of Indonesia).
You may see these three cultures influenced very much Cirebon kingdom, from the architecture of their old palaces (Kanoman and Kasepuhan in Cirebon), and also from their old ornaments, their expression of arts. Cirebon was an Islamic kingdom, but their anchestors were from Segaluh and Pajajaran (Buddha and Hindhu kingdoms in West Java). And their strongest sultan, Sunan Gunung Jati was half Middle east blood, or Egyptian blood. But had Chinese wife, Ong Tin Nio from the Ming dynasty (the tomb of Ong Tin Nio is still existed in Cirebon, in the Gunung Jati cemetery complex).
[QUOTE=VVV
I have also been told that another name of it is a Naga Lar Seluman Kenci (sorry if the description words are in the wrong order as my Indonesian language abilities are mostly used for ordering food?).
Michael[/QUOTE]
Naga = great snake, dragon, symbolism of Chinese influence. Lar = literally means "wing". Seluman or siluman = invisible creature. Kenci? I don't think that this word exist in Indonesian or Javanese language.

I hope this will help you, Mike..

Ganjawulung

16th August 2007, 03:13 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Ganja, Thanks for your comments. Do you know anything about the symbolism/attributes of a Garuda-Naga? I have also been told that another name of it is a Naga Lar Seluman Kenci (sorry if the description words are in the wrong order as my Indonesian language abilities are mostly used for ordering food?). Michael

19th August 2007, 09:30 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Doc, So it says. I am not sure if the visible teeth and tongue or the wings is what decides the name in case both are there at the same time? Michael

22nd August 2007, 07:44 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Ganja for taking your time and explaining the details! Obviously my source for Kenci/Kentji was wrong as I was told that it meant fang. I am a bit surprised on Naga as a Chinese influence. This is originally a Sanskrit word, and an Indian mythological creature. That's why I thought it was more connected to the Hindu snakedragon than the Chinese dragons also in Indonesia? But maybe there are several explanations to the same symbol? Michael

23rd August 2007, 12:01 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	The idea of the Naga is widespread in Asia. Yes, origin is Hindu, and from there into Buddhism. It is a Sanscrit word and in Sanscrit it means a being that is in the form of a large snake. There are a number of Nagas, probably most important amongst them is Vasuki or Basuki, who is the essence that binds the earth. In the Gita, Krishna when explaining how he could be everywhere at the same time said that as a serpent he was Vasuki. To those who are not familiar with Hindu beliefs, it is easily understandable that the Naga can be taken as the dragon and as such as a symbol of China. Cirebon was founded fairly recently, around 1470 or 1480 I think, and as a Muslim state. That the founders of Cirebon took the Naga as a symbol of China is perfectly understandable. The presence of the Naga image on the keris goes far beyond the simplistic icon of direct relationship. For those with an interest in this I suggest an indepth look at the way in which Hindu beliefs developed in Bali up until the European domination of that island. In Hindu mythology the Nagas were the enemies of the Garuda.Nagas were subterranean, Garudas flew.Pretty obvious.Possibly of more interest is the fact that the value of winged Naga and a winged elephant is numerologically the same. The word "naga" itself deserves extended study, as it can be applied in many meanings, depending on the language, place and context. Regarding the two words "munda" and "kenci". Is it possible that the word "munda" is in fact "mundhak"--- to become greater? Let us not forget Mr. Jensen's sources; it would be very easy for such a name to arise from these sources, and would be perfectly understandable. In fact, depending on the source involved, it could even be correct, but correct at the time and place of its origin, which is not to say that it would be recognised in present day Jawa. To somebody unfamiliar with the Javanese language "mundhak" would sound as "munda". "Kenci" is in fact a legitimate word in Javanese, it is a singkatan ( abbreviation) for "kertu cilik"---"small card", and refers to the small playing cards that are used in dominoes and other card games. However, I sincerely doubt that it has an application in reference to anything at all to do with the keris.