Sawfish sword

Tim Simmons · 14th August 2007, 06:54 PM

Just to put a cap on this thread.

VANDOO · 15th August 2007, 01:19 AM

HI TIM WHAT WAS THE DATE OF THE EXPIDITION AND IS THERE ANY INFO ON WHERE THE ITEMS WERE COLLECTED?

LOOKING OVER THE THREAD IT SEEMS ABOUT COMPLETE UNLESS WE CAN RUN ACROSS SOME NEW REFRENCES.
I COULD ONLY THINK OF ONE THING TO ADD THE WEAPONS OR RICTUAL ITEMS MADE BY THE TRIBES WERE MADE FOR USE, THOSE MADE BY SAILORS WERE MOSTLY MADE FOR SOUVINEERS OR GIFTS NOT USE. THE SAILOR WOULD BRING HIS HOME AND IT WOULD END UP ON A WALL OR STORED SOMEWHERE.
THE NATIVE ITEMS MIGHT BE DESTROYED IN BATTLE OR WORN OUT AND DISCARDED WHEN MORE EFFECIENT WEAPONS BECAME AVAILABLE FOR INSTANCE METAL AX,SWORD OR GUNS. IF THEY HAD RELIGIOUS OR CEREMONIAL VALUE THEY WOULD PROBABLY HAVE BEEN RICTUALY BURIED OR OTHERWISE DISPOSED OF. SO I WOULD GUESS A LARGER PROPORTION OF SAILOR MADE ITEMS SURVIVED OF COURSE THE NATIVE MADE ONES TRADED FOR BY SAILORS WOULD ALSO HAVE HAD A BETTER CHANCE OF SURVIVAL.

Tim Simmons · 15th August 2007, 06:47 AM

Hi Vandoo. 1912. There is some of the material collected in the Natural History museum London. I have found that this is a collection of skulls, I thought that sort of thing had stopped by then. I would imagine that some of the insects may be there also. There may be some material at the FitzWilliam Cambridge where Wollaston was a tutor, only to be shot by a pupil who then took thier own life.
http://www.papua-insects.nl/history/...expedition.htm

fearn · 22nd August 2007, 04:58 AM

Hi All,

Just saw a new article on sawfishes. Couple of things in it that are relevant here.

1) I didn't realize when I posted above, but the CITES ban on sawfish trade reportedly goes into effect September 1, 2007. This will ban all international sales of sawfish, dead or alive, whole or in parts.

In addition to international trade, in the US, domestic trade in sawfish will also be banned, since the US follows CITES rules in this regard. Other countries have other rules. I don't know if sawfish bills are like ivory, in that older items are grandfathered in if they have a documented provenance and age. Please check your local laws if you want to sell or buy a sawbill.

2) the reason for the ban is that sawfish have been hammered by coastal development and overfishing (accidental or intentional, see below). Since they grow slowly and reproduce slowly (basically at human rate), every species of sawfish is endangered. Some species are down in the 3,000 animals range.

3) What do people do with sawfish parts, other than carving weapons? According to the article, sawbills are believed to be the most effective tool for repelling demons, disease spirits, and ghosts across Asia (comments?).

So Tim, you can now go into the exorcism business. Have fun!

Bottom line: if you own one of these bills and want to sell it, do it now. Otherwise, it will become an heirloom. Considering how weird and neat these critters are, if you're so inclined, you may want to support conservation and preservation efforts for these species, so that future generations will get to see sawfish bills outside of museums and dusty collections. Realize also that in the old days, they used to get 10 meters long, and now they rarely top three meters, so the longer everyone waits, the bigger they get.

Fearn

Tim Simmons · 22nd August 2007, 05:06 PM

I think I will keep mine. I could make a few bob as a local sham phoowy man.

Tim Simmons · 8th February 2010, 09:58 PM

I do not really want to wake the dead but just have to post this link.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...<br /> arch_o

Perhaps this link will work?

http://www.britishmuseum.org/join_in...s.aspx?asset_i

VANDOO · 9th February 2010, 04:32 AM

SEEING AS HOW IT LIVES AGAIN I WILL ADD SOME PICTURES.

1. SAWFISH SCULPTURE MADE WITH REAL SAWFISH BILL BY YOUNG DR. SUESS HIMSELF IN THE 1930'S
2. BROADBILL SWORDFISH SWORD AND TWO FIDS MADE FROM MARLIN BILLS (MARLIN SPIKE) ECT.
3. AFRICAN MADE EXAMPLE 1946, CUT OUT HANDLE.
4. SAWFISH SWORD WITH INTERESTING HANDLE
5. SAWFISH SWORD
6. CLOSE UP OF VERY OLD BROADBILL SWORDFISH SHOWING PATINA.
I HAVE A NICE EXAMPLE FROM NEW GUINEA BUT THE CAMERAS ARE DOWN SO I CAN'T ADD PIC'S NOW.

LAST YEAR I WAS LOOKING AT A LARGE COLLECTION OF INDIAN ARTEFACTS AND FOSSILS FROM OKLAHOMA. THE FELLOW HAD SOMETHING HE SAID WAS ONE HALF OF A BOW FOUND NEAR OKLAHOMA CITY. IT WAS A BROADBILL SWORDFISH BILL AND A VERY OLD ONE CERTIANLY PRECOLUMBIAN. SO NATIVE AMERICANS BROUGHT ONE FROM THE OCEAN TO OKLAHOMA IN PREHISTORIC TIMES. WEAPON OR CEREMONIAL OBJECT WE WILL NEVER KNOW.

8th February 2010, 09:58 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,889	sorry to disturb the dead. I do not really want to wake the dead but just have to post this link. http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...<br /> arch_o Perhaps this link will work? http://www.britishmuseum.org/join_in...s.aspx?asset_i

9th February 2010, 04:32 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	SEEING AS HOW IT LIVES AGAIN I WILL ADD SOME PICTURES. 1. SAWFISH SCULPTURE MADE WITH REAL SAWFISH BILL BY YOUNG DR. SUESS HIMSELF IN THE 1930'S 2. BROADBILL SWORDFISH SWORD AND TWO FIDS MADE FROM MARLIN BILLS (MARLIN SPIKE) ECT. 3. AFRICAN MADE EXAMPLE 1946, CUT OUT HANDLE. 4. SAWFISH SWORD WITH INTERESTING HANDLE 5. SAWFISH SWORD 6. CLOSE UP OF VERY OLD BROADBILL SWORDFISH SHOWING PATINA. I HAVE A NICE EXAMPLE FROM NEW GUINEA BUT THE CAMERAS ARE DOWN SO I CAN'T ADD PIC'S NOW. LAST YEAR I WAS LOOKING AT A LARGE COLLECTION OF INDIAN ARTEFACTS AND FOSSILS FROM OKLAHOMA. THE FELLOW HAD SOMETHING HE SAID WAS ONE HALF OF A BOW FOUND NEAR OKLAHOMA CITY. IT WAS A BROADBILL SWORDFISH BILL AND A VERY OLD ONE CERTIANLY PRECOLUMBIAN. SO NATIVE AMERICANS BROUGHT ONE FROM THE OCEAN TO OKLAHOMA IN PREHISTORIC TIMES. WEAPON OR CEREMONIAL OBJECT WE WILL NEVER KNOW. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 9th February 2010 at 04:44 AM.

14th August 2007, 06:54 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,889	Just to put a cap on this thread.

15th August 2007, 01:19 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HI TIM WHAT WAS THE DATE OF THE EXPIDITION AND IS THERE ANY INFO ON WHERE THE ITEMS WERE COLLECTED? LOOKING OVER THE THREAD IT SEEMS ABOUT COMPLETE UNLESS WE CAN RUN ACROSS SOME NEW REFRENCES. I COULD ONLY THINK OF ONE THING TO ADD THE WEAPONS OR RICTUAL ITEMS MADE BY THE TRIBES WERE MADE FOR USE, THOSE MADE BY SAILORS WERE MOSTLY MADE FOR SOUVINEERS OR GIFTS NOT USE. THE SAILOR WOULD BRING HIS HOME AND IT WOULD END UP ON A WALL OR STORED SOMEWHERE. THE NATIVE ITEMS MIGHT BE DESTROYED IN BATTLE OR WORN OUT AND DISCARDED WHEN MORE EFFECIENT WEAPONS BECAME AVAILABLE FOR INSTANCE METAL AX,SWORD OR GUNS. IF THEY HAD RELIGIOUS OR CEREMONIAL VALUE THEY WOULD PROBABLY HAVE BEEN RICTUALY BURIED OR OTHERWISE DISPOSED OF. SO I WOULD GUESS A LARGER PROPORTION OF SAILOR MADE ITEMS SURVIVED OF COURSE THE NATIVE MADE ONES TRADED FOR BY SAILORS WOULD ALSO HAVE HAD A BETTER CHANCE OF SURVIVAL.

15th August 2007, 06:47 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,889	Hi Vandoo. 1912. There is some of the material collected in the Natural History museum London. I have found that this is a collection of skulls, I thought that sort of thing had stopped by then. I would imagine that some of the insects may be there also. There may be some material at the FitzWilliam Cambridge where Wollaston was a tutor, only to be shot by a pupil who then took thier own life. http://www.papua-insects.nl/history/...expedition.htm

22nd August 2007, 04:58 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, Just saw a new article on sawfishes. Couple of things in it that are relevant here. 1) I didn't realize when I posted above, but the CITES ban on sawfish trade reportedly goes into effect September 1, 2007. This will ban all international sales of sawfish, dead or alive, whole or in parts. In addition to international trade, in the US, domestic trade in sawfish will also be banned, since the US follows CITES rules in this regard. Other countries have other rules. I don't know if sawfish bills are like ivory, in that older items are grandfathered in if they have a documented provenance and age. Please check your local laws if you want to sell or buy a sawbill. 2) the reason for the ban is that sawfish have been hammered by coastal development and overfishing (accidental or intentional, see below). Since they grow slowly and reproduce slowly (basically at human rate), every species of sawfish is endangered. Some species are down in the 3,000 animals range. 3) What do people do with sawfish parts, other than carving weapons? According to the article, sawbills are believed to be the most effective tool for repelling demons, disease spirits, and ghosts across Asia (comments?). So Tim, you can now go into the exorcism business. Have fun! Bottom line: if you own one of these bills and want to sell it, do it now. Otherwise, it will become an heirloom. Considering how weird and neat these critters are, if you're so inclined, you may want to support conservation and preservation efforts for these species, so that future generations will get to see sawfish bills outside of museums and dusty collections. Realize also that in the old days, they used to get 10 meters long, and now they rarely top three meters, so the longer everyone waits, the bigger they get. Fearn

22nd August 2007, 05:06 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,889	I think I will keep mine. I could make a few bob as a local sham phoowy man.