Can we call this a rapier blade ?

fernando · 13th August 2007, 01:57 AM

It certainly is a long one; 96 cms. for the blade and 16 cms for the tang. 2,5 cms. wide and 9 m/m thick at the base. There are still some thread traces at the tang end, meaning the pommel was fixed by screwing. The marks on the blade are dificult to decipher or photograph. The first letters on one side could be T O VI A and on the other are N T O L. I wonder if T O L stands for Toledo. This surely is an old blade, probably from a rapier.
Could anyone coment on this blade, its possible age and use ? Are you around, Marc ?
I know better pictures would help.
Thanks a lot in advance
fernando

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2007, 03:20 AM

Hi Fernando,
The blade does appear to be a rapier blade, and blades of this form seem consistant with blades sent to Spains colonies to be mounted during the latter 17th century. I have seen blades in similar condition stated to have come from shipwrecks of that period, in this case marked 'Jesus' on one side in the fuller and 'maria' on the other side in the fuller. Since rapiers were typically not made in the colonies it may be presumed that these would be replacement blades for those broken.
While the corrosion on the examples I have seen was extensive, it is difficult to imagine how they could survive at all underwater as typically, unless encased in coral etc. they rust away. The only thing I can think of would be in shallow water under silt, but I'm no underwater archaeologist

In any case, lots of blades were sent to the colonies over considerable time and by the latter 18th, early 19th century large quantities of the so called 'dragoon' type broadsword blades typically with the 'Spanish motto' were sent to Mexico. The blades often were literally in bundles as far as quantity, which is why they turn up so prolifically in various swords.
I am sure that Marc will add to this !

All best regards,
Jim

Chris Evans · 13th August 2007, 04:11 AM

Hi Fernando,

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

It certainly is a long one; 96 cms. for the blade and 16 cms for the tang. 2,5 cms. wide and 9 m/m thick at the base. There are still some thread traces at the tang end, meaning the pommel was fixed by screwing. The marks on the blade are dificult to decipher or photograph. The first letters on one side could be T O VI A and on the other are N T O L. I wonder if T O L stands for Toledo. This surely is an old blade, probably from a rapier.
Could anyone coment on this blade, its possible age and use ? Are you around, Marc ?
I know better pictures would help.
Thanks a lot in advance
fernando

That is unquestionably a rapier blade and as Jim said, of probably Spanish origins I can't help you with any more than that, but would love to know its weight - Any chance of you weighing it?

Any evidence that it ever held a sharp edge?

Cheers
Chris

Jeff D · 13th August 2007, 04:46 AM

"TOMAS AIALA " or variant of it? A shortening of EN TOLEDO on the other side?

Jeff

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2007, 04:57 AM

Hi Jeff,
Thats probably correct as the Ayala blades had virtually the same type fuller and if I am not mistaken, Ayala used the 'Jesus' "Maria' on opposing blade sides, I could not identify the mark used as I recall as it was too encrusted. I believe Ayala was one of only a few Toledo smiths who used that motif . Again, Marc will have the final word

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 13th August 2007, 01:14 PM

Excelent, Jeff.
It just fits. I didn't know the name, so i wouldn't figure out for myself.
I can now see that VI is in fact an M, as i already suspected when i saw it with a glass. Yhe othere problem is that the E and D for Toledo are not in a regular font. I am so much obliged for your help.
Hi Jim, thanks for the input.
Perhaps this unit has never left Spain. It was bought yesterday in a street market in Vila Nove de Cerveira, a little town some twenty miles away from Spain. There is a couple Galitian sellers allways in this fair. Although i bought this from a Portuguese guy, there is a strong chance it had been belong to the Spaniards, as fair sellers intersell and interchange very often their stuff.
Or it could as well being bought by a Portuguese in the period, as it massively happened. In any case i am most probably facing a blade from the beginning of the XVI century ... for 50 Euros ( $68 ).
Olá Chris, como estás?
This blade weighs 453 grams ( 1 pound), its section is lenticular and its edges are sharp ... not accutely, but i think i can call them sharp.
I have already started browsing the Net on Tomas Aiala, as i wonder what type of mountings this blade would have.
I don't think it has been made for these complex basket rapiers, as it doesn't have a ricasso. Maybe for a more simple military weapon.
I wish Marc, or any of you, would come around, to give an idea, or even a picture of what its handle and hilt could be

kind regards
fernando

Marc · 13th August 2007, 02:52 PM

Hi, Fernando.

What you have there seems to be a late "rapier" blade. Period would go from late 17th to mid- late 18th c. In its actual shape, without ricasso (the unsharpened, and in fact normally rectangular-ish in section, portion between the tang and the actual blade), this piece is intended to be mounted in a early smallsword hilt, taking here the term "smallsword" in its widest sense, and keeping into account that in Spain rapiers were still in use until the 18th c, when everybody else in Western Europe had adopted the smallsword. In this context, and in the years after the Bourbon dynasty took the Spanish throne (after the 1700-1714 War of Succession) introducing a lot of French uses in the court and in the country, many wore swords with rapier blades and smallsword hilts, not to mention some military regulation patterns that kept wearing rapier-ish blades until the end of the 18th.c. This blade could be from any point in this period. And it could either be a blade already made to fit this kind of hilts, or a re-conversion of an earlier blade, but I think that the first case is the most likely.
The technical quality of this blade is not very high (look at the wavy fullers), although very probably is perfectly suitable, function-wise. It's probably made in Solingen, where a lot of these were made to supply Spanish, European and colonial markets, including counterfeit marks with the names of famous swordmakers an prestigious places of origin, being very likely the case here. Tomas de Ayala was a 16th c. Toledo maker, and his name is one of the most easily found in this kind of blades, but he died in 1583 (... IIRC, quoting from memory, but if not, it was around that), and this blade is clearly later, and of a quality that it would have never left the workshop of such a Master Artisan with his name in it.
This "counterfeiting" is a quite usual phenomenon in blades coming from Germany in that period, think in the "Andrea Ferrara" blades being supplied to England and Scotland that are today found with such prevalence in baskethilt broad-and backswords, many with misspellings, as happens with "Toledo" marked swords. I never thought to this kind of trade as an attempt to fool but the most candid of customers, but more as the kind of market that satisfies the demand today for the likes of "Rolex" watches and "Gucci" handbags at popular prices in street market stalls or Hong-Kong shops.
In any event, at that price, Fernando, it is an EXCELLENT buy, believe me, and it is in a very good state of conservation. A gentle cleaning to remove any active rust, and you'll have here a nice bit of history that at some point was mounted as a sword, and who knows through how many things has gone through. In a more personal note, to my eyes, this is an honest soldier, not an officer, maybe (although I wouldn't really bet against it, I've seen some of those in officer swords), but, without doubt, a warrior.

fernando · 13th August 2007, 04:08 PM

Hi Marc,
Much obliged for the authentic treatise.
Its amazing how famous names and their consequent image have been "abused" since long time ago untill recent days. I am aware that at least in some cases, the misspelling of names was not due to ignorance but a resource to prevent the law to process you for counterfeit. It just comes to my mind the famous Spanish blue jeans maker "LOIS", which had a Portuguese imitator that marked the jeans with the brand "LOES". Up to a certain extent the popular Spanish motor car SEAT is much too similar in sound to its Italian originated FIAT, pass the coincidence. Not to speak of Zara ( the clothes company ), which has all possible misspellings in shops around here ( and possibly Spain ) to take advantage of that enterprise's image.
I am still glad that my blade is actual very old stuff, although with a forged name. In a way, like in coins and stamps, period abnormalities have their own added value

.
Now i will go digest all your teachings on the blade subject.
Un gran saludo.
fernando

Jim McDougall · 14th August 2007, 06:34 AM

Marc,
Eloquently written and beautifully said!!! This blade was indeed a warrior, and you have presented an excellent history for it. Thank you for going into such detail concerning these blades. While I knew the 18th century 'dragoon' blades we have discussed many times concerning Spanish colonial swords and with the famed 'Spanish motto' indeed came from Solingen, I had not thought of these having the same origins.
I learn more on these swords every time you write and was looking forward to your response

Thanks again!
Very best regards,
Jim

Chris Evans · 14th August 2007, 08:17 AM

Hi Fernando,

Many thanks for that information. Sent you a PM

Cheers
Chris

13th August 2007, 01:57 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Can we call this a rapier blade ? It certainly is a long one; 96 cms. for the blade and 16 cms for the tang. 2,5 cms. wide and 9 m/m thick at the base. There are still some thread traces at the tang end, meaning the pommel was fixed by screwing. The marks on the blade are dificult to decipher or photograph. The first letters on one side could be T O VI A and on the other are N T O L. I wonder if T O L stands for Toledo. This surely is an old blade, probably from a rapier. Could anyone coment on this blade, its possible age and use ? Are you around, Marc ? I know better pictures would help. Thanks a lot in advance fernando Attached Images

13th August 2007, 03:20 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Rapier Hi Fernando, The blade does appear to be a rapier blade, and blades of this form seem consistant with blades sent to Spains colonies to be mounted during the latter 17th century. I have seen blades in similar condition stated to have come from shipwrecks of that period, in this case marked 'Jesus' on one side in the fuller and 'maria' on the other side in the fuller. Since rapiers were typically not made in the colonies it may be presumed that these would be replacement blades for those broken. While the corrosion on the examples I have seen was extensive, it is difficult to imagine how they could survive at all underwater as typically, unless encased in coral etc. they rust away. The only thing I can think of would be in shallow water under silt, but I'm no underwater archaeologist In any case, lots of blades were sent to the colonies over considerable time and by the latter 18th, early 19th century large quantities of the so called 'dragoon' type broadsword blades typically with the 'Spanish motto' were sent to Mexico. The blades often were literally in bundles as far as quantity, which is why they turn up so prolifically in various swords. I am sure that Marc will add to this ! All best regards, Jim

13th August 2007, 01:14 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Excelent, Jeff. It just fits. I didn't know the name, so i wouldn't figure out for myself. I can now see that VI is in fact an M, as i already suspected when i saw it with a glass. Yhe othere problem is that the E and D for Toledo are not in a regular font. I am so much obliged for your help. Hi Jim, thanks for the input. Perhaps this unit has never left Spain. It was bought yesterday in a street market in Vila Nove de Cerveira, a little town some twenty miles away from Spain. There is a couple Galitian sellers allways in this fair. Although i bought this from a Portuguese guy, there is a strong chance it had been belong to the Spaniards, as fair sellers intersell and interchange very often their stuff. Or it could as well being bought by a Portuguese in the period, as it massively happened. In any case i am most probably facing a blade from the beginning of the XVI century ... for 50 Euros ( $68 ). Olá Chris, como estás? This blade weighs 453 grams ( 1 pound), its section is lenticular and its edges are sharp ... not accutely, but i think i can call them sharp. I have already started browsing the Net on Tomas Aiala, as i wonder what type of mountings this blade would have. I don't think it has been made for these complex basket rapiers, as it doesn't have a ricasso. Maybe for a more simple military weapon. I wish Marc, or any of you, would come around, to give an idea, or even a picture of what its handle and hilt could be kind regards fernando Attached Images

13th August 2007, 04:08 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	MOLTES GRÀCIES Hi Marc, Much obliged for the authentic treatise. Its amazing how famous names and their consequent image have been "abused" since long time ago untill recent days. I am aware that at least in some cases, the misspelling of names was not due to ignorance but a resource to prevent the law to process you for counterfeit. It just comes to my mind the famous Spanish blue jeans maker "LOIS", which had a Portuguese imitator that marked the jeans with the brand "LOES". Up to a certain extent the popular Spanish motor car SEAT is much too similar in sound to its Italian originated FIAT, pass the coincidence. Not to speak of Zara ( the clothes company ), which has all possible misspellings in shops around here ( and possibly Spain ) to take advantage of that enterprise's image. I am still glad that my blade is actual very old stuff, although with a forged name. In a way, like in coins and stamps, period abnormalities have their own added value . Now i will go digest all your teachings on the blade subject. Un gran saludo. fernando Last edited by fernando; 14th August 2007 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Words addition

13th August 2007, 04:46 AM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	"TOMAS AIALA " or variant of it? A shortening of EN TOLEDO on the other side? Jeff

13th August 2007, 04:57 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Hi Jeff, Thats probably correct as the Ayala blades had virtually the same type fuller and if I am not mistaken, Ayala used the 'Jesus' "Maria' on opposing blade sides, I could not identify the mark used as I recall as it was too encrusted. I believe Ayala was one of only a few Toledo smiths who used that motif . Again, Marc will have the final word All the best, Jim

13th August 2007, 02:52 PM	#7
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Hi, Fernando. What you have there seems to be a late "rapier" blade. Period would go from late 17th to mid- late 18th c. In its actual shape, without ricasso (the unsharpened, and in fact normally rectangular-ish in section, portion between the tang and the actual blade), this piece is intended to be mounted in a early smallsword hilt, taking here the term "smallsword" in its widest sense, and keeping into account that in Spain rapiers were still in use until the 18th c, when everybody else in Western Europe had adopted the smallsword. In this context, and in the years after the Bourbon dynasty took the Spanish throne (after the 1700-1714 War of Succession) introducing a lot of French uses in the court and in the country, many wore swords with rapier blades and smallsword hilts, not to mention some military regulation patterns that kept wearing rapier-ish blades until the end of the 18th.c. This blade could be from any point in this period. And it could either be a blade already made to fit this kind of hilts, or a re-conversion of an earlier blade, but I think that the first case is the most likely. The technical quality of this blade is not very high (look at the wavy fullers), although very probably is perfectly suitable, function-wise. It's probably made in Solingen, where a lot of these were made to supply Spanish, European and colonial markets, including counterfeit marks with the names of famous swordmakers an prestigious places of origin, being very likely the case here. Tomas de Ayala was a 16th c. Toledo maker, and his name is one of the most easily found in this kind of blades, but he died in 1583 (... IIRC, quoting from memory, but if not, it was around that), and this blade is clearly later, and of a quality that it would have never left the workshop of such a Master Artisan with his name in it. This "counterfeiting" is a quite usual phenomenon in blades coming from Germany in that period, think in the "Andrea Ferrara" blades being supplied to England and Scotland that are today found with such prevalence in baskethilt broad-and backswords, many with misspellings, as happens with "Toledo" marked swords. I never thought to this kind of trade as an attempt to fool but the most candid of customers, but more as the kind of market that satisfies the demand today for the likes of "Rolex" watches and "Gucci" handbags at popular prices in street market stalls or Hong-Kong shops. In any event, at that price, Fernando, it is an EXCELLENT buy, believe me, and it is in a very good state of conservation. A gentle cleaning to remove any active rust, and you'll have here a nice bit of history that at some point was mounted as a sword, and who knows through how many things has gone through. In a more personal note, to my eyes, this is an honest soldier, not an officer, maybe (although I wouldn't really bet against it, I've seen some of those in officer swords), but, without doubt, a warrior.

14th August 2007, 06:34 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Marc, Eloquently written and beautifully said!!! This blade was indeed a warrior, and you have presented an excellent history for it. Thank you for going into such detail concerning these blades. While I knew the 18th century 'dragoon' blades we have discussed many times concerning Spanish colonial swords and with the famed 'Spanish motto' indeed came from Solingen, I had not thought of these having the same origins. I learn more on these swords every time you write and was looking forward to your response Thanks again! Very best regards, Jim

14th August 2007, 08:17 AM	#10
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 676	Hi Fernando, Many thanks for that information. Sent you a PM Cheers Chris