What can anyone tell me about this?

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2007, 01:22 AM

That is true Ward, and perhaps that is why nobody else responded to this post. I responded to address the topic on the marking hoping that avoiding any remarks on authenticity or value would not compromise auction activity.

tom hyle · 13th August 2007, 02:37 PM

Why do you think it's a spear blade?
I am interested in what appear to be bevels at the shoulders of the blade, where it narrows to the tang (or tongue; the part in the handle); it looks like there are sharpened bevels facing toward the handle, that would cut(?) any stray fibres or skin that gets caught in that joint?.....

Gary Varner · 13th August 2007, 03:40 PM

Mark, no the auction is over--I was the only bidder it appears luckily for me. Tom I was just wondering if it could possibly have been a spear as its shape is similar to other spear points I have seen but I also have seen illustrations of similar Sudan and central African daggers/swords that weren't originally spears. I am rather unfamiliar with this weapon. I was told that it was probably in excess of 100 years in age but I don't know how to determine that.

Thanks all for your input!

Gary

Jim McDougall · 14th August 2007, 06:17 AM

Gary,
I am glad you were able to get this interesting dagger! Also, your oversight in the post was just that, and I commend you for your sincerity in acknowledging the error. With that out of the way, I would like to note that I do not believe this blade has anything to do with a spear blade either.

More important, that marking. While I had originally thought this might represent a snake, in seeing it closer, I believe this image may represent an unusual weapon known in the Sudan. This was typically regarded as a ritual knife (detail beyound that is unclear) and comprised two reversed curve iron blades on either end of a central handle, a particularly wicked looking weapon with the blades typically etched with 'thuluth' script. These opposed blade weapons are apparantly derived from a Rajput weapon of this form termed a 'haladie' (Stone p.275, Egerton 390) and are noted to still have been in use in Syria in 20th c. This reference to Syria might account for the diffusion of this weapon into North Africa.

In any case, it is known that such markings often represent significant material objects, in this case possibly alluding to one of these 'ritual daggers' to suggest more elevated status for this weapon itself.
In its size, does this appear to be of the size for an arm dagger?

Best regards,
Jim

Flavio · 14th August 2007, 10:05 AM

Hi all!! To me this is a sudnese dagger, but in the largest meaning of the word "sudanese": I think that this is more from the west part of the Sudan (the region south of the Sahara) more than the present Sudan country.

Gary Varner · 15th August 2007, 12:26 AM

Thanks Jim for your interesting observations! Yes, the dagger does look like the typical size of the arm dagger (at least what I have seen in photographs). The "S" mark, by the way, is on both sides of the blade. I suppose this is one of those cases where we will never truly know the meaning of the symbol but I certainly am inclined to go with your idea that it may represent a double-curved ritual weapon since, in looking at the "S" more closely myself, it appears that it is a joined curve rather than a correct "S". I suppose that could be due to the difficulty in the engraving though.

If you happen to think of any additional possibilities I would be most pleased to hear them!

Thanks,

Gary

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2007, 07:09 AM

Hi Gary,
I had thought this was probably of arm dagger size, thank you for confirming. The 'S' appeared more to be two opposed and conjoined semicircles, much in the same profile as these ritual dagger/ haladie weapons, so the representation seemed plausible. I will let you know if anything else comes up, the associations possible between these markings sometimes found on Sudanese blades and objects, and tribal symbols becomes compelling.
All the best,
Jim

14th August 2007, 06:17 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Gary, I am glad you were able to get this interesting dagger! Also, your oversight in the post was just that, and I commend you for your sincerity in acknowledging the error. With that out of the way, I would like to note that I do not believe this blade has anything to do with a spear blade either. More important, that marking. While I had originally thought this might represent a snake, in seeing it closer, I believe this image may represent an unusual weapon known in the Sudan. This was typically regarded as a ritual knife (detail beyound that is unclear) and comprised two reversed curve iron blades on either end of a central handle, a particularly wicked looking weapon with the blades typically etched with 'thuluth' script. These opposed blade weapons are apparantly derived from a Rajput weapon of this form termed a 'haladie' (Stone p.275, Egerton 390) and are noted to still have been in use in Syria in 20th c. This reference to Syria might account for the diffusion of this weapon into North Africa. In any case, it is known that such markings often represent significant material objects, in this case possibly alluding to one of these 'ritual daggers' to suggest more elevated status for this weapon itself. In its size, does this appear to be of the size for an arm dagger? Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 14th August 2007 at 06:32 AM.

13th August 2007, 01:22 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	That is true Ward, and perhaps that is why nobody else responded to this post. I responded to address the topic on the marking hoping that avoiding any remarks on authenticity or value would not compromise auction activity.

13th August 2007, 02:37 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Why do you think it's a spear blade? I am interested in what appear to be bevels at the shoulders of the blade, where it narrows to the tang (or tongue; the part in the handle); it looks like there are sharpened bevels facing toward the handle, that would cut(?) any stray fibres or skin that gets caught in that joint?.....

13th August 2007, 03:40 PM	#3
Gary Varner Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 18	Mark, no the auction is over--I was the only bidder it appears luckily for me. Tom I was just wondering if it could possibly have been a spear as its shape is similar to other spear points I have seen but I also have seen illustrations of similar Sudan and central African daggers/swords that weren't originally spears. I am rather unfamiliar with this weapon. I was told that it was probably in excess of 100 years in age but I don't know how to determine that. Thanks all for your input! Gary

14th August 2007, 10:05 AM	#5
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi all!! To me this is a sudnese dagger, but in the largest meaning of the word "sudanese": I think that this is more from the west part of the Sudan (the region south of the Sahara) more than the present Sudan country.

15th August 2007, 12:26 AM	#6
Gary Varner Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 18	Thanks Jim for your interesting observations! Yes, the dagger does look like the typical size of the arm dagger (at least what I have seen in photographs). The "S" mark, by the way, is on both sides of the blade. I suppose this is one of those cases where we will never truly know the meaning of the symbol but I certainly am inclined to go with your idea that it may represent a double-curved ritual weapon since, in looking at the "S" more closely myself, it appears that it is a joined curve rather than a correct "S". I suppose that could be due to the difficulty in the engraving though. If you happen to think of any additional possibilities I would be most pleased to hear them! Thanks, Gary

15th August 2007, 07:09 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Hi Gary, I had thought this was probably of arm dagger size, thank you for confirming. The 'S' appeared more to be two opposed and conjoined semicircles, much in the same profile as these ritual dagger/ haladie weapons, so the representation seemed plausible. I will let you know if anything else comes up, the associations possible between these markings sometimes found on Sudanese blades and objects, and tribal symbols becomes compelling. All the best, Jim