Help with helmet, origin?

josh stout · 8th August 2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennee

It is intended to be Tibetan. Made in China. Recent.

Ouch... They did a good job making it look old. The patina is not too even, and the damascened gold is quite artfully worn.

Is this style of helmet a fantasy piece that you see often?
Josh

Klas Larsson · 8th August 2007, 10:59 PM

Ouch is quite proper then, if Deene is correct. But it looks very convincing, the patina as Josh says and the wear....

There where two other helmets, not identical but same basic design sold by the same dealer over a few weeks time. If they had been the same I wouldn't have chanced on this one, but the variation speaks against them being fakes.

Deeene, I wonder why you go for the fake alternative? What do you base that on? Have you seen other similar helmets that are fakes?
Do you know what the character on the helmet is, what kind of writing? Hopefully it do not mean Made in China....

There are other possibilities, as for example that its not very old, and maybe not the highest quality, but not fakes, from Tibet, where armor where used in to modern times.

dennee · 9th August 2007, 03:07 AM

Yes, I have seen a bunch of very similar helmets, some with the Buddhist designs and more without. On ebay and from various dealers, some reputable, some not. I have seen it once identified as Korean, but usually Tibetan. I think you would have to agree that such a helmet, if genuine, would have to be rather scarcer than it has been in my experience. I asked Don LaRocca last year if he had seen a genuine prototype for these, and he said, no. I have seen something somewhat similar in a monastery in central Tibet (see below).

I can post pictures of fakes from ebay and from the Barkhor, if you like. And yes, they are generally convincingly patinated, although some are better than others in terms of uniformity between the constituent pieces.

Klas Larsson · 9th August 2007, 12:45 PM

Deene, Thanks for the reply, and the good picture.
That helmet is a bit more in the style of mine than the helmets of the book Warriors of the Himalayas.

Quote:

I can post pictures of fakes from ebay and from the Barkhor, if you like.

Yes, that would be great. And any more information is welcome.
In few days I will have the helmet here and can take a hands on look at it.

I hadn't seen these before the last weeks, and I had no idea that they where common, or that it existed fakes of helmets.
So I was a bit careless. But I suppose it should be expected, with all the fakes that exists in Chinese weapons...

dennee · 9th August 2007, 11:45 PM

Klas, it's nothing to feel bad about (except for regret at the lost money). We have all made missteps. I absolutely have.

A few helmets of, shall we say, suspect origins. The first two are from prominent auction houses about two years ago, the next two from dealers who generally offer authentic pieces, the next two from the main market street in Lhasa two years ago (although they were only two of many of various types), and the last two from ebay (see next post for last four mentioned).

The fakes usually take this form or a Tang/Yarlung Dynasty period form--or a mixture of the two. They almost always have a lamellar neck guard. I have seen an example similar to the eight-plate types shown in LaRocca's book with a pagri not dissimilar to those shown in Waddell's 1905 book.

dennee · 10th August 2007, 12:11 AM

Similarities and variations...

9th August 2007, 03:07 AM	#3
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Yes, I have seen a bunch of very similar helmets, some with the Buddhist designs and more without. On ebay and from various dealers, some reputable, some not. I have seen it once identified as Korean, but usually Tibetan. I think you would have to agree that such a helmet, if genuine, would have to be rather scarcer than it has been in my experience. I asked Don LaRocca last year if he had seen a genuine prototype for these, and he said, no. I have seen something somewhat similar in a monastery in central Tibet (see below). I can post pictures of fakes from ebay and from the Barkhor, if you like. And yes, they are generally convincingly patinated, although some are better than others in terms of uniformity between the constituent pieces. Attached Images

9th August 2007, 11:45 PM	#5
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Klas, it's nothing to feel bad about (except for regret at the lost money). We have all made missteps. I absolutely have. A few helmets of, shall we say, suspect origins. The first two are from prominent auction houses about two years ago, the next two from dealers who generally offer authentic pieces, the next two from the main market street in Lhasa two years ago (although they were only two of many of various types), and the last two from ebay (see next post for last four mentioned). The fakes usually take this form or a Tang/Yarlung Dynasty period form--or a mixture of the two. They almost always have a lamellar neck guard. I have seen an example similar to the eight-plate types shown in LaRocca's book with a pagri not dissimilar to those shown in Waddell's 1905 book. Attached Images

10th August 2007, 12:11 AM	#6
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Similarities and variations... Attached Images

8th August 2007, 10:59 PM	#2
Klas Larsson Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 23	Ouch is quite proper then, if Deene is correct. But it looks very convincing, the patina as Josh says and the wear.... There where two other helmets, not identical but same basic design sold by the same dealer over a few weeks time. If they had been the same I wouldn't have chanced on this one, but the variation speaks against them being fakes. Deeene, I wonder why you go for the fake alternative? What do you base that on? Have you seen other similar helmets that are fakes? Do you know what the character on the helmet is, what kind of writing? Hopefully it do not mean Made in China.... There are other possibilities, as for example that its not very old, and maybe not the highest quality, but not fakes, from Tibet, where armor where used in to modern times.