Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

B.I · 9th March 2005, 10:48 AM

hi,
back to the original quote by jens, about the meteorite weapons commisioned by jahangir. well, the dagger actually exists still and is in the freer gallery of art in washington.
to quote on the dagger in the gallery -

'it was ordered together with a dagger and two swords, to be made from the metal of a meteorite. accounts of this incident appear in jahangirs memoirs and also in the iqbal-nameh-i jahangiri. the armourer was ustad da'ud, described in the iqbal-nameh as 'well known in those days for the swords he made'. it is inscribed in gold persian nasta'liq on the spine of the blade:

'there fell in the time of jahangir shah from lightning-like precious piece.janhangir ibn akbar ordered to make from it two swords (shamshir), this knife (kard) and a dagger (khanjar). in the year 1030 (1621ad) in the year 16 (of jahangirs succession),146.'

the hilt of this knife, clearly original, is decoarated with typically persian chisselled vignettes of a lion killing an antelope and a hawk killing a bird. the form and repeat pattern of these medallions are founds on persian metalwork such as candlesticks of the period. this object is pure persian in inspiration, except that the royal ownership is underlined by the inlaid gold umbrella mark on the blade.'

note, he number 146 has been debated and general consencus agree the possibility of it being an inventory number. also, by pure speculation from an image, without holding the piece, the persian work on the hilt just reminds me of late 18thC work, and not of the period stated. its just a speculative opinion, as the quote is from a good source, as are the general opinions from the freer gallery.
interesting stuff!!
btw, although it is a great dagger indeed, i think i would gladly exchange it for the chance to see jens' face when i sees the images

Jens Nordlunde · 9th March 2005, 11:19 AM

Hi B.I.

I was a bit surprised to see that ’Meteoric’ was still alive, and to see the picture was an even bigger surprise. I had never thought that any of these weapons, made out of the meteor, still existed. How or where you found it is a riddle to me, but thank you very much for showing it. The pattern on the blade is most unusual, but I like it a lot, just like I like the whole knife. Your end remark about seeing my face when I read the text and saw the pictures, was very well placed

.

Jens

Mare Rosu · 9th March 2005, 05:25 PM

JENS
This is a link to the dagger that B.I.
is showing.
http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/s...ObjectId=10925
Gene

B.I · 9th March 2005, 06:00 PM

well found, gene. i didnt realise that a picture was online, and i bet jens is kicking himself for not finding it first

i learnt sometime ago from the V&A pieces that you can find additional information from somthing as simple as an accession number. these are never random numbers, at least in british institutions and i think the US is the same.
this piece has the number
Purchase, F1955.27a-b
1955 is the year the museum aquired it, and F probably is the inititial of the person/sale it was aquired from. i'm sure a little back tracking could yield some more information. either that, or a phonecall to someone in the department to ask what the F stands for. it would be good to know where the dagger came from, as we can assume the museum hasnt held it too long.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th March 2005, 10:27 PM

Gene, thank you for the link – it is a beauty. I wonder what the museum want this knife for, now in my collection – it would be real comfy – but I am afraid that they will not part with it, sigh.
I think I will have to settle with the fact that it is safe, and kept for new collectors to see and admire. Just imagine its history – fantastic. The pattern of the blade, besides being very unusual, really fascinates me. How many other blades do we know, of which we are sure, that they are made of meteoric iron?

B.I. is a bit of a marvel, when he puts his mind to it, it is not the first time he has given me a big surprise – and I don’t hope it will be the last time.

Mare Rosu · 14th March 2005, 12:28 AM

JENS
This is a link to a painting of Jahangir the owner of the dagger shown by B.I. ,from the Smithsonian Museum link I posted on the Asian Museum

http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/s...?ObjectId=3407

Gene

Jens Nordlunde · 14th March 2005, 11:11 AM

Yes Gene, it is a very nice drawing of a high quality.
A pity that we can't travel in time - yet, or maybe it is good so, becourse how many people would stay back in our time, they would all be travelling to other time zones

.

Jens

9th March 2005, 10:48 AM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi, back to the original quote by jens, about the meteorite weapons commisioned by jahangir. well, the dagger actually exists still and is in the freer gallery of art in washington. to quote on the dagger in the gallery - 'it was ordered together with a dagger and two swords, to be made from the metal of a meteorite. accounts of this incident appear in jahangirs memoirs and also in the iqbal-nameh-i jahangiri. the armourer was ustad da'ud, described in the iqbal-nameh as 'well known in those days for the swords he made'. it is inscribed in gold persian nasta'liq on the spine of the blade: 'there fell in the time of jahangir shah from lightning-like precious piece.janhangir ibn akbar ordered to make from it two swords (shamshir), this knife (kard) and a dagger (khanjar). in the year 1030 (1621ad) in the year 16 (of jahangirs succession),146.' the hilt of this knife, clearly original, is decoarated with typically persian chisselled vignettes of a lion killing an antelope and a hawk killing a bird. the form and repeat pattern of these medallions are founds on persian metalwork such as candlesticks of the period. this object is pure persian in inspiration, except that the royal ownership is underlined by the inlaid gold umbrella mark on the blade.' note, he number 146 has been debated and general consencus agree the possibility of it being an inventory number. also, by pure speculation from an image, without holding the piece, the persian work on the hilt just reminds me of late 18thC work, and not of the period stated. its just a speculative opinion, as the quote is from a good source, as are the general opinions from the freer gallery. interesting stuff!! btw, although it is a great dagger indeed, i think i would gladly exchange it for the chance to see jens' face when i sees the images Attached Images

9th March 2005, 11:19 AM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi B.I. I was a bit surprised to see that ’Meteoric’ was still alive, and to see the picture was an even bigger surprise. I had never thought that any of these weapons, made out of the meteor, still existed. How or where you found it is a riddle to me, but thank you very much for showing it. The pattern on the blade is most unusual, but I like it a lot, just like I like the whole knife. Your end remark about seeing my face when I read the text and saw the pictures, was very well placed . Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 9th March 2005 at 03:32 PM.

9th March 2005, 05:25 PM	#3
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Dagger JENS This is a link to the dagger that B.I. is showing. http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/s...ObjectId=10925 Gene

14th March 2005, 12:28 AM	#6
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	JAHANGIR JENS This is a link to a painting of Jahangir the owner of the dagger shown by B.I. ,from the Smithsonian Museum link I posted on the Asian Museum http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/s...?ObjectId=3407 Gene

9th March 2005, 06:00 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	well found, gene. i didnt realise that a picture was online, and i bet jens is kicking himself for not finding it first i learnt sometime ago from the V&A pieces that you can find additional information from somthing as simple as an accession number. these are never random numbers, at least in british institutions and i think the US is the same. this piece has the number Purchase, F1955.27a-b 1955 is the year the museum aquired it, and F probably is the inititial of the person/sale it was aquired from. i'm sure a little back tracking could yield some more information. either that, or a phonecall to someone in the department to ask what the F stands for. it would be good to know where the dagger came from, as we can assume the museum hasnt held it too long.

9th March 2005, 10:27 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gene, thank you for the link – it is a beauty. I wonder what the museum want this knife for, now in my collection – it would be real comfy – but I am afraid that they will not part with it, sigh. I think I will have to settle with the fact that it is safe, and kept for new collectors to see and admire. Just imagine its history – fantastic. The pattern of the blade, besides being very unusual, really fascinates me. How many other blades do we know, of which we are sure, that they are made of meteoric iron? B.I. is a bit of a marvel, when he puts his mind to it, it is not the first time he has given me a big surprise – and I don’t hope it will be the last time.

14th March 2005, 11:11 AM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Gene, it is a very nice drawing of a high quality. A pity that we can't travel in time - yet, or maybe it is good so, becourse how many people would stay back in our time, they would all be travelling to other time zones . Jens