Origins of Shepherds' Knives and Karakulaks

erlikhan · 1st August 2007, 11:02 PM

Teodor,isn't today's Macedonia flag a sun with rays around it? I found one on internet and counted the rays. They are eight. If a shepherd knife of 100 years old from Macedonia has a similar mark, instead of looking for a continuous track going back to 2000 years ago, I would consider Macedonian seperatist uprisings in that part of Balkans as a reason, supporters of which perhaps used their ancient symbols to claim a historical base for their movements and identities ,so that ancient symbol regained a such popularity among local people. I mean, just perhaps you can find the same symbol on a pistol or a rifle or anything from that period too.The earliest yataghan sample is from 1520s, 170-180 years later after the start of Balkan conquests which is a quiet long time gap making it too difficult to suggest any relation between Balkan conquest-yataghan fashion and more difficulty added as there is no satisfactory sample or record at all, to combine too long time gap between ancient Macedonian swords and 16th c. Ottoman yataghans , not only in Turkic lands, but in Balkans or anywhere around as well.

TVV · 2nd August 2007, 03:42 AM

Erlikhan, you are right, there was a flag in the Ilinden uprisal, which had 16 beams instead of 8. The official flag of the Krushevo Republic was black and red, however, and there is very little to indicate that the ancient Macedonian symbols were held in high esteem. I very highly doubt that the akkulak pictured is connected to the 1903 rebellion, despite how romantic such a reltionship could be, and this is a fairly common mark on karakulaks found in nowadays Bulgaria. It is extremely unlikely that they are all Macedonian, and one needs to keep in mind that Macedonian nationalism is a recent and quite amusing phenomenon - some historiographers in Skopie would go great lengths in their quest for legitimizing a nation that did not exist 50 years ago.
I agree that the gap between the acient Greek and Thracian swords with an S-shaped blade and the Ottoman yataghans from the 16th century is huge, and it puzzles me a lot, how the yataghan appeared out of the blue, with no ancestors at all. If the official theory, which maintains that this shape was introduced to Central Asia by Alexander the Great's armies is true, why are not there any Central Asian finds of such blades, other than (maybe) the Nepalese khukris? Or maybe they are, but I just do not know about them, and this is what I like to find out, for there is evolution in blade shapes and nothing apperas out of itself, with nothing to precede it.

erlikhan · 2nd August 2007, 02:47 PM

Teodor, I do not favor that theory Alexander the great - introduction of yataghans to central Asia. The same big gap there like in Balkans,no doubt. No sample or record.Yataghan is practically an infantry arm which I dont think primarily mounted warriors of central Asia would like so much and continue the tradition for 1700 years or so. They preferred arrows,bows,javelins and long sabers . I wonder if there is any certain,satisfactory yataghan record before Suleyman the magnificent's beautiful yataghan. I have always considered it very interesting that the most beautiful and extraordinary yataghan sample known is also by far the earliest yataghan that is known to exist !

TVV · 2nd August 2007, 04:11 PM

I could not agree more with you. I brought up the machaira hypothesis not because I like it - there is lack of evidence, but because I have always had problems with the Alexander the Great theory - there is not much to support it either.

Yannis · 2nd August 2007, 05:59 PM

The "separatist"

theory goes very far.

The Vergina Star discovered in 1977 so there is no way to be used like identity symbol of anyone before that.

erlikhan · 2nd August 2007, 09:29 PM

I wonder what is funny about the word 'separatist'? Were they not getting armed and fighting Ottomans to separate from them? Or the problem is "Macedonians are not a seperate ethnical people, so they don't have the right to be separatist"?

If a symbol has existed widely on armors, buildings, etc. and especially thousands of coins from a definite area as Teodor's picture shows, it doesn't have to wait to be found on a royal stuff underground, for the permission to be claimed by any people/ organization. It is very interesting that how Macedonia and its neighbors all have too different points of views on the subject,each opposite of all others,as far as I know. With a short web search you can find sites with amazingly different points of views like http://www.makedonija.info/info.html

ariel · 2nd August 2007, 10:28 PM

Folks, you are skating on a very thin ice! Some of our moderators are presumably still in the slammer and the coast might be temporarily clear, but I would much rather learn about the origins of yataghans than about national grievances

2nd August 2007, 09:29 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I wonder what is funny about the word 'separatist'? Were they not getting armed and fighting Ottomans to separate from them? Or the problem is "Macedonians are not a seperate ethnical people, so they don't have the right to be separatist"? If a symbol has existed widely on armors, buildings, etc. and especially thousands of coins from a definite area as Teodor's picture shows, it doesn't have to wait to be found on a royal stuff underground, for the permission to be claimed by any people/ organization. It is very interesting that how Macedonia and its neighbors all have too different points of views on the subject,each opposite of all others,as far as I know. With a short web search you can find sites with amazingly different points of views like http://www.makedonija.info/info.html Last edited by erlikhan; 2nd August 2007 at 10:42 PM.

1st August 2007, 11:02 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Teodor,isn't today's Macedonia flag a sun with rays around it? I found one on internet and counted the rays. They are eight. If a shepherd knife of 100 years old from Macedonia has a similar mark, instead of looking for a continuous track going back to 2000 years ago, I would consider Macedonian seperatist uprisings in that part of Balkans as a reason, supporters of which perhaps used their ancient symbols to claim a historical base for their movements and identities ,so that ancient symbol regained a such popularity among local people. I mean, just perhaps you can find the same symbol on a pistol or a rifle or anything from that period too.The earliest yataghan sample is from 1520s, 170-180 years later after the start of Balkan conquests which is a quiet long time gap making it too difficult to suggest any relation between Balkan conquest-yataghan fashion and more difficulty added as there is no satisfactory sample or record at all, to combine too long time gap between ancient Macedonian swords and 16th c. Ottoman yataghans , not only in Turkic lands, but in Balkans or anywhere around as well.

2nd August 2007, 03:42 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,663	Erlikhan, you are right, there was a flag in the Ilinden uprisal, which had 16 beams instead of 8. The official flag of the Krushevo Republic was black and red, however, and there is very little to indicate that the ancient Macedonian symbols were held in high esteem. I very highly doubt that the akkulak pictured is connected to the 1903 rebellion, despite how romantic such a reltionship could be, and this is a fairly common mark on karakulaks found in nowadays Bulgaria. It is extremely unlikely that they are all Macedonian, and one needs to keep in mind that Macedonian nationalism is a recent and quite amusing phenomenon - some historiographers in Skopie would go great lengths in their quest for legitimizing a nation that did not exist 50 years ago. I agree that the gap between the acient Greek and Thracian swords with an S-shaped blade and the Ottoman yataghans from the 16th century is huge, and it puzzles me a lot, how the yataghan appeared out of the blue, with no ancestors at all. If the official theory, which maintains that this shape was introduced to Central Asia by Alexander the Great's armies is true, why are not there any Central Asian finds of such blades, other than (maybe) the Nepalese khukris? Or maybe they are, but I just do not know about them, and this is what I like to find out, for there is evolution in blade shapes and nothing apperas out of itself, with nothing to precede it.

2nd August 2007, 02:47 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Teodor, I do not favor that theory Alexander the great - introduction of yataghans to central Asia. The same big gap there like in Balkans,no doubt. No sample or record.Yataghan is practically an infantry arm which I dont think primarily mounted warriors of central Asia would like so much and continue the tradition for 1700 years or so. They preferred arrows,bows,javelins and long sabers . I wonder if there is any certain,satisfactory yataghan record before Suleyman the magnificent's beautiful yataghan. I have always considered it very interesting that the most beautiful and extraordinary yataghan sample known is also by far the earliest yataghan that is known to exist !

2nd August 2007, 04:11 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,663	I could not agree more with you. I brought up the machaira hypothesis not because I like it - there is lack of evidence, but because I have always had problems with the Alexander the Great theory - there is not much to support it either.

2nd August 2007, 05:59 PM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	The "separatist" theory goes very far. The Vergina Star discovered in 1977 so there is no way to be used like identity symbol of anyone before that.

2nd August 2007, 10:28 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Folks, you are skating on a very thin ice! Some of our moderators are presumably still in the slammer and the coast might be temporarily clear, but I would much rather learn about the origins of yataghans than about national grievances