Ivory hilt dagger with "Tears" and a "Smiley?"

Mare Rosu · 29th July 2007, 06:22 PM

Kronckew, great pictures you posted, like you dog also, being a dog nut, what breed is it?.
The "Smiley" on your kard is about the same place as it is on mine.
Not in the "pinkie" finger area that Jens has seen before.
I have never seen that cut on a hilt before and hope some of the forum folks Could shed some more light on it. Wounder if it is a maker's mark?
Jens the dark area inside the "smiley" cleaned off as it was just dirt. Used Ren Wax and it came off.
I also did a quick clean on the blade and an acid etch. Found what I think is a temper line on the blade (see pictures), but nothing else, the crucible steel pattern did show up rather nicely though. You can also see a forging crack on the blade.
Jens the slot for the balls/tears is rather large but the ball will not come out and there are 12 steel balls in the slot. I, at first counted 13 but did a recount and there are 12, no Jens one did not fall out.
Anyone got any idea how the ball were placed in the slots?

kronckew · 29th July 2007, 08:23 PM

hi mare,
caution thread veer ahead:

Millie is a retired NGC greyhound, she raced up till 2004 and was a grade A1 just before she was injured and stopped racing (she won her next to last race at 10:1 & made her owner a bundle, then hurt her foot next race when another dog collided with her. i adopted her a few months later to be a companion for me and my other (male) greyhound, Blue - a blue brindle)

Blue was found as a stray puppie & i've had him since he was 10Mo. - he's never raced.
Both on the spare bed: (both are about 65lb each of pure muscle)

end of thread veer zone: we now return you to our normally scheduled subject.

re the balls: i suspect that the channel was cut into the grip, the balls added then the metal cover was set into the grip to retain them. clever craftsmanship could have notched the recess in the ivory such that a slightly sprung hooked area on the retainer clicked into place without need of cement...

kai · 30th July 2007, 08:46 AM

Hello Gene,

Just as an aside: the magnetic field seems to follow the blades curve - is it possible that the (relatively) low forging temperature of wootz allows an original ingot to remain magnetized? That still wouldn't explain the reversal though!

I know that a magnetized steel needle becomes depolarized when heated to glowing red - what about dendritic steel though? Need to pull out my compass and test another recurved blade...

Regards,
Kai

Jens Nordlunde · 30th July 2007, 04:42 PM

Nice kard you have Kronckew, and you are right, it is the same type of smiley. Do you have any idea; even a guess would do at this time, of what the meaning can be? I believe the channel in which the balls run must have been made finished before the balls were entered. If the front had been more open in a place, and when the balls were in place had to be hammered back in place, it could easily have happened that the part being hammered at could/would have been hammered a bit too much down, and spoil the running of the balls. To my opinion the place where the balls were entered must be hidden by one of the grip shells.

Well Gene, you surely have a nice collection of compasses as well as weapons, and you are a specialist in finding blades with a multiply of poles

. Do you demand a compass reading before you buy, or do you make the test when you have the weapon? It looks rather confusing, and maybe Kai is onto something, but on the other hand, I thought that iron/steel would loose the magnetism then you hit it. It is some time ago I read this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=292 but the answer to the question should be hidden in one of the posts.

rand · 30th July 2007, 05:41 PM

Fascinating posts,

Jens, what a well researched reply, was a pleasure to read.

Am I correct that the compass's point towards the thickest part of the blade is, namesly the tip and the bolsa?

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 30th July 2007, 09:47 PM

Thank you Rand, but like I wrote to Gene, it was only a few books and a little time. I know/understand, unfortunately, very little about the magnetism, but lodestone fascinates me – the time span it has been known and used, and the believes in this metal – fascinates me.

When it comes to the compass reading please ask Gene

.

Mare Rosu · 31st July 2007, 07:30 PM

Kronckew;
Very nice dogs you have, say hi to Millie and Blue for me.
I probed the inside of the slot wit a dentist tool and could not find any protrusion on the slot walls. The only seam on the chamber holding the steel ball is on the upper blade end of the chamber, it is one piece until it get to other end where the small "ring" is attached between the two wings of the hilt.

Kai;
You are correct on the magnetic field following the blade contour;see photograph. If anyone hasn't done so yet, you need to read Jens "Classic" post on "Magnetic Weapons" http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=292
Get a pot of coffee or any other type of adult beverage and start finding about magnetic weapons.

Jens;
My supply of compasses will come in handy if I ever start a survival class

Do you think that my "magnetic" personalty has anything to do with my daggers? Could be now

Rand;
I agree with you on Jen's postings he is very astute and knowledgeable and he will share that with other folks, all very good traits, I say.
Yes you are also correct on you observation on the needle points on the dagger. Also see the pictures.

Jens I a not trying to rehash you Magnetic Weapons post but did want to show anyone new about this dagger. I am now an expert on using iron fillings

Gene

29th July 2007, 06:22 PM	#1
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Kronckew, great pictures you posted, like you dog also, being a dog nut, what breed is it?. The "Smiley" on your kard is about the same place as it is on mine. Not in the "pinkie" finger area that Jens has seen before. I have never seen that cut on a hilt before and hope some of the forum folks Could shed some more light on it. Wounder if it is a maker's mark? Jens the dark area inside the "smiley" cleaned off as it was just dirt. Used Ren Wax and it came off. I also did a quick clean on the blade and an acid etch. Found what I think is a temper line on the blade (see pictures), but nothing else, the crucible steel pattern did show up rather nicely though. You can also see a forging crack on the blade. Jens the slot for the balls/tears is rather large but the ball will not come out and there are 12 steel balls in the slot. I, at first counted 13 but did a recount and there are 12, no Jens one did not fall out. Anyone got any idea how the ball were placed in the slots? Attached Images Last edited by Mare Rosu; 29th July 2007 at 06:37 PM.

30th July 2007, 04:42 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Nice kard you have Kronckew, and you are right, it is the same type of smiley. Do you have any idea; even a guess would do at this time, of what the meaning can be? I believe the channel in which the balls run must have been made finished before the balls were entered. If the front had been more open in a place, and when the balls were in place had to be hammered back in place, it could easily have happened that the part being hammered at could/would have been hammered a bit too much down, and spoil the running of the balls. To my opinion the place where the balls were entered must be hidden by one of the grip shells. Well Gene, you surely have a nice collection of compasses as well as weapons, and you are a specialist in finding blades with a multiply of poles. Do you demand a compass reading before you buy, or do you make the test when you have the weapon? It looks rather confusing, and maybe Kai is onto something, but on the other hand, I thought that iron/steel would loose the magnetism then you hit it. It is some time ago I read this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=292 but the answer to the question should be hidden in one of the posts.

30th July 2007, 05:41 PM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Magnetic directions Fascinating posts, Jens, what a well researched reply, was a pleasure to read. Am I correct that the compass's point towards the thickest part of the blade is, namesly the tip and the bolsa? rand

30th July 2007, 09:47 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Rand, but like I wrote to Gene, it was only a few books and a little time. I know/understand, unfortunately, very little about the magnetism, but lodestone fascinates me – the time span it has been known and used, and the believes in this metal – fascinates me. When it comes to the compass reading please ask Gene.

31st July 2007, 07:30 PM	#7
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Here we go again! Kronckew; Very nice dogs you have, say hi to Millie and Blue for me. I probed the inside of the slot wit a dentist tool and could not find any protrusion on the slot walls. The only seam on the chamber holding the steel ball is on the upper blade end of the chamber, it is one piece until it get to other end where the small "ring" is attached between the two wings of the hilt. Kai; You are correct on the magnetic field following the blade contour;see photograph. If anyone hasn't done so yet, you need to read Jens "Classic" post on "Magnetic Weapons" http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=292 Get a pot of coffee or any other type of adult beverage and start finding about magnetic weapons. Jens; My supply of compasses will come in handy if I ever start a survival class Do you think that my "magnetic" personalty has anything to do with my daggers? Could be now Rand; I agree with you on Jen's postings he is very astute and knowledgeable and he will share that with other folks, all very good traits, I say. Yes you are also correct on you observation on the needle points on the dagger. Also see the pictures. Jens I a not trying to rehash you Magnetic Weapons post but did want to show anyone new about this dagger. I am now an expert on using iron fillings Gene Attached Images

29th July 2007, 08:23 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	hi mare, caution thread veer ahead: Millie is a retired NGC greyhound, she raced up till 2004 and was a grade A1 just before she was injured and stopped racing (she won her next to last race at 10:1 & made her owner a bundle, then hurt her foot next race when another dog collided with her. i adopted her a few months later to be a companion for me and my other (male) greyhound, Blue - a blue brindle) Blue was found as a stray puppie & i've had him since he was 10Mo. - he's never raced. Both on the spare bed: (both are about 65lb each of pure muscle) end of thread veer zone: we now return you to our normally scheduled subject. re the balls: i suspect that the channel was cut into the grip, the balls added then the metal cover was set into the grip to retain them. clever craftsmanship could have notched the recess in the ivory such that a slightly sprung hooked area on the retainer clicked into place without need of cement...

30th July 2007, 08:46 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Gene, Just as an aside: the magnetic field seems to follow the blades curve - is it possible that the (relatively) low forging temperature of wootz allows an original ingot to remain magnetized? That still wouldn't explain the reversal though! I know that a magnetized steel needle becomes depolarized when heated to glowing red - what about dendritic steel though? Need to pull out my compass and test another recurved blade... Regards, Kai