keris and spirit

David · 18th July 2007, 02:26 PM

Sepokal, i hope you will go back, re-read what i and others have said, and try to find a better understanding in it.
Nowhere do i even suggest that it is inappropriate to discuss Malay keris (due to it's connection to Islam) nor am i uncomfortable with the discussion of keris and Islam either. In fact i encourage such discussion as it is obvious that in much of Indonesian and on the peninsula the keris is considered an Islamic weapon. I personally do not believe that the keris originates in Islam however. I did not say that i believe it originates in Hinduism either, though this is probably in my mind. I am even willing to entertain the notion that the keris pre-dates the influences of both these great religions. What i am not willing to entertain is debate on which is the "correct" religious or spiritual path from which to approach the keris from. Why this idea should translate in your mind into the idea that we do not or should not discuss Islam and the keris here remains a mystery to me. You are most certainly welcome to your own beliefs and to state them clearly in this forum. I certainly find nothing offensive about your beliefs or Islam in general (nor other belief systems for that matter). But what you wrote gave me the impression that you are not so tolerant of the beliefs of others that may be different form your own. Please forgive me is i have the wrong impression. Dogmatic thought that implies that your spiritual beliefs are somehow more "correct" than others will not be welcomed here. As Alan suggests, these are debates which cannot be won by any side and only leave the debaters angry with one another. They are wars not worth fighting and they wil not be fought on this forum. Period!
I do suggest that if you want to communicate your ideas here better that you start by providing English translation to the terms and phrases that i listed at the beginning of my last post. It will go a long way in breaking down any barriers of misunderstanding that may have formed between us.

As for Mojopahit keris, there have been numerous published examples of these keris and i am sure someone can provide you with so pictures soon.

Pusaka · 18th July 2007, 03:09 PM

I personally don’t believe that the keris has its roots as an Islamic weapon. If someone suggested to me that Stonehenge was built by Christians I would likewise disagree.
I think there is more evidence that points towards an vedic origin than an Islamic origin. It is true that the Vedic culture was introduced to India by the Aryans so maybe the keris has an Aryan origin?

HanaChu69 · 18th July 2007, 08:01 PM

Greetings,

I agree that it’s great to exchange ideas but it looks like Tsunami has hit this thread…

Sepokal – I believe in “universal cultural keris values”. Appreciate if you could elaborate philosophy of the Malay keris for better understanding complete with referencing link (if any). Others may not be able to relate them in comparison to the Javanese keris. Some might be too busy to take the effort to read up on cultural values of the keris world.

Rick – I guess there’s no reason to panic. It’s only robust verbal discussion and not using keris or spiritual battle field. I’m sure that we will be able to forgive and forget with due respect of the coming New Year (Hari Raya Puasa).

David – I would like to highlight that sometimes it is difficult to translate Malay or Islamic terms to the English Language. The meaning and idea may get distorted. Viewers might get the wrong perception. This applies to other languages for one word can take you more than 10 sentences to elaborate including examples.

Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder. How did you derive with the above theory? Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread? Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links?

Sincerely,
Hana

P.S – The beauty of universal languages will enable you to open gates of the respective culture and values with your eyes wide open….Amazing indeed!!

Rick · 18th July 2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Rick – I guess there’s no reason to panic. It’s only robust verbal discussion and not using keris or spiritual battle field. I’m sure that we will be able to forgive and forget with due respect of the coming New Year (Hari Raya Puasa).

Thanks for your concern dear Hana ; I've been doing this too many years to panic.

I simply watch and warn.... and keep a bucket of water handy .

With respect to the use of other languages in here; I feel very strongly that translations must be given;even if it is merely the gist of the idea otherwise people may feel ... uncomfortable not knowing what is being said .

People like the Moderators.

Warmest wishes,

Rick

David · 18th July 2007, 09:13 PM

Hana, thank you for your thoughtful post. I do, of course, agree with you that it isn't always easy to translate words and concepts from one cultural reality to another. But if it takes 10 word or 10 paragraphs to successfully translate an idea it must be done, otherwise why bother writing it to begin with. What is written in this forum must be useful to all, not just a select few who understand the terms being thrown about. While ideas my get distorted from time to time it is better than half the audience or more having absolutely no understanding of the terms being used. I am afraid that if we are going to come to any understanding we must make the effort to translate no matter how difficult it may seem.

Pusaka · 18th July 2007, 10:12 PM

Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder.

Well that is most refreshing to know

How did you derive with the above theory?

Firstly I know that the keris was in Indonesia before the coming of Islam so if it was in Indonesia before the coming of Islam then it would make one think that its origins cant be Islamic.

Secondly if we were to study weapons in the homeland of Islam will we see anything that could at a later date have mutated into a keris? Is there a tradition of using pamor in those weapons. Is there a tradition of using meteorite in those weapons.

Thirdly art, what dose Islamic art look like? Dose it permit the depiction of nature in art. I recall reading that one of the first observations of a keris in Indonesia records a straight blade with a bone handle carved in the form of a human. The human form handle is also displayed in the earliest keris. Is this something that we would expect to see in Islamic art, the literal depiction of the human form?
Nagas, elephants, winged horses, dragons, birds are these things we would expect to see in Islamic art or Indian art? If we look at Islamic art do we see any of those things depicted literally?

Fourthly, make a study of ancient Vedic art and weapons and you might find images that make you ponder.

Fifthly the rituals that surround the keris, making weapons with supposed spirits trapped inside, is that even permitted in the Islamic religion, the use of spirits?

Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread?

No I have not read that thread yet, but will do so.

Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links?

No its no more possible for me to prove that the keris is of Indian/Aryan origin any more than it is possible for someone to prove that the keris is an Islamic weapon. In the end it comes to personal beliefs.

A. G. Maisey · 18th July 2007, 11:47 PM

I have just finished reading the most recent posts to this thread.

I am a little disappointed that such ill informed comments are being made in respect of origin, development and spread of the keris.

Yes, I have written on this, but I do not ask anybody to accept without question that which I have written. Setting aside my own work, there is adequate evidence available to point anybody who can read in the direction of discovery for themselves.

Regretably this evidence is for the most part contained in books that are only available in large or specialised libraries; it cannot be accessed with a mouseclick. What this means for those who do not have access to such libraries is that they must avail themselves of material that is available on the net. Much of the material available on the net in this field draws upon these previously mentioned library sources.

Possibly a little time spent in research may be more valuable for some of us than the attempted support of insupportable opinions.

google can work wonders.

rahman · 19th July 2007, 01:42 AM

This thread is getting more interesting, and for the same reasons similar discussions in KampungNet got thrown into the Garbage Bin.

Methinks, rather than the forumers try to prove/disprove sepokal's thesis, the burden of proof should rest on him.

He has made some interesting claims about the Islamic origin of the keris, along with others -- such as the last Majapahit kingdom being based in Kelantan. He now needs to show us evidence to back his claims.

That is after all the foundation of learned discussion.

David · 19th July 2007, 03:15 AM

I can assure you all that this thread as a whole will not find it's way into any "garbage bin", though there is always the chance that offensive or highly disrespectful posts could get deleted. So far nothing written here qualifies for such drastic measures and i trust it will remain so.

I agree with Rahman. Since the commonly accepted wisdom as i understand it does not seem to support Sepokal's theory it would seem logical that it would be up to him to present convincing evidence to the contrary. Good luck with that.

PenangsangII · 19th July 2007, 03:33 AM

Salam to all keris afficionados,

If every single theory needed to be backed up by scientific findings, archaelogical artefacts etc, then I am afraid I cant do that. You see, I am only a high school graduate, my English is so bad (I even had a tough time trying to understand some of the posts here) etc etc. However, I came from a culture (or rather 2 cultures) that has little written tradition. What I heard in the past and what I am still hearing (I am still learning the traditional way) are materials obtained from oral tradition. That's why when I suggested that keris could also be of Aryan's origin, I was expecting somebody to comment so that I can learn from others' perspective, not only from my gurus. So I hope I will not be asked to provide scientific evidence please

.

sepokal · 19th July 2007, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahman

This thread is getting more interesting, and for the same reasons similar discussions in KampungNet got thrown into the Garbage Bin.

Methinks, rather than the forumers try to prove/disprove sepokal's thesis, the burden of proof should rest on him.

He has made some interesting claims about the Islamic origin of the keris, along with others -- such as the last Majapahit kingdom being based in Kelantan. He now needs to show us evidence to back his claims.

That is after all the foundation of learned discussion.

Dear Mr Rahman,

May I ask, since when was it that historian claim absolutely that the origin of Keris is not of Islamic origin? They merely deduce or rather in Scientific term, infered that Keris originated from Hinduism, through Candi Sukor. Now, all this was based on them studying Javanese Keris. Are we that naive to not know that the Malays too have their own version of Keris during those times? Or is it just because, we want information to be placed on our lap rather than to do research and dig deep?

This forum is not a place for me to unveil all the knowledge that I've gained through my many years of travelling and meeting with many people and reading books. I've given the information. I've got nothing to prove to anyone, at all. There is no profit for me to reveil those information to you. Nevertheless, I did reveil those information to you, long ago, but ironically, you want me to prove it. On a normal circumstance, I would, but now, I think, I won't. Do us a favour Mr Rahman, this information was known to you long ago. Have you made any research on this (plus doa) or do you expect things to just fall onto your lap? The burden to prove about Keris originated from Islam is never a burden to me now Mr Rahman. I'm passed that phase, long ago. I'll leave the burden to you and others, I guess

...or rather, I would advise, just stick to what you know, Keris and Hinduism...

Learned discussion requires you to do research Mr Rahman from what might be, to what actually is.

Oh by the way, do any Javanese keris have Dapor Sepokal like that of Bugis? Look at the shape, does it remind you of any "huruf" from Al Quran?

Allah Hafiz and Regards,
sepokal toh putih

p.s
Erm, I don't intend to do any more forum, so thanks. Penangsang...hehehe...stop mentioning my name...Hana...you know where to find me...hehehe

18th July 2007, 02:26 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Sepokal, i hope you will go back, re-read what i and others have said, and try to find a better understanding in it. Nowhere do i even suggest that it is inappropriate to discuss Malay keris (due to it's connection to Islam) nor am i uncomfortable with the discussion of keris and Islam either. In fact i encourage such discussion as it is obvious that in much of Indonesian and on the peninsula the keris is considered an Islamic weapon. I personally do not believe that the keris originates in Islam however. I did not say that i believe it originates in Hinduism either, though this is probably in my mind. I am even willing to entertain the notion that the keris pre-dates the influences of both these great religions. What i am not willing to entertain is debate on which is the "correct" religious or spiritual path from which to approach the keris from. Why this idea should translate in your mind into the idea that we do not or should not discuss Islam and the keris here remains a mystery to me. You are most certainly welcome to your own beliefs and to state them clearly in this forum. I certainly find nothing offensive about your beliefs or Islam in general (nor other belief systems for that matter). But what you wrote gave me the impression that you are not so tolerant of the beliefs of others that may be different form your own. Please forgive me is i have the wrong impression. Dogmatic thought that implies that your spiritual beliefs are somehow more "correct" than others will not be welcomed here. As Alan suggests, these are debates which cannot be won by any side and only leave the debaters angry with one another. They are wars not worth fighting and they wil not be fought on this forum. Period! I do suggest that if you want to communicate your ideas here better that you start by providing English translation to the terms and phrases that i listed at the beginning of my last post. It will go a long way in breaking down any barriers of misunderstanding that may have formed between us. As for Mojopahit keris, there have been numerous published examples of these keris and i am sure someone can provide you with so pictures soon.

18th July 2007, 03:09 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I personally don’t believe that the keris has its roots as an Islamic weapon. If someone suggested to me that Stonehenge was built by Christians I would likewise disagree. I think there is more evidence that points towards an vedic origin than an Islamic origin. It is true that the Vedic culture was introduced to India by the Aryans so maybe the keris has an Aryan origin?

18th July 2007, 08:01 PM	#3
HanaChu69 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 29	Greetings, I agree that it’s great to exchange ideas but it looks like Tsunami has hit this thread… Sepokal – I believe in “universal cultural keris values”. Appreciate if you could elaborate philosophy of the Malay keris for better understanding complete with referencing link (if any). Others may not be able to relate them in comparison to the Javanese keris. Some might be too busy to take the effort to read up on cultural values of the keris world. Rick – I guess there’s no reason to panic. It’s only robust verbal discussion and not using keris or spiritual battle field. I’m sure that we will be able to forgive and forget with due respect of the coming New Year (Hari Raya Puasa). David – I would like to highlight that sometimes it is difficult to translate Malay or Islamic terms to the English Language. The meaning and idea may get distorted. Viewers might get the wrong perception. This applies to other languages for one word can take you more than 10 sentences to elaborate including examples. Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder. How did you derive with the above theory? Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread? Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links? Sincerely, Hana P.S – The beauty of universal languages will enable you to open gates of the respective culture and values with your eyes wide open….Amazing indeed!!

18th July 2007, 09:13 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Hana, thank you for your thoughtful post. I do, of course, agree with you that it isn't always easy to translate words and concepts from one cultural reality to another. But if it takes 10 word or 10 paragraphs to successfully translate an idea it must be done, otherwise why bother writing it to begin with. What is written in this forum must be useful to all, not just a select few who understand the terms being thrown about. While ideas my get distorted from time to time it is better than half the audience or more having absolutely no understanding of the terms being used. I am afraid that if we are going to come to any understanding we must make the effort to translate no matter how difficult it may seem.

18th July 2007, 10:12 PM	#6
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder. Well that is most refreshing to know How did you derive with the above theory? Firstly I know that the keris was in Indonesia before the coming of Islam so if it was in Indonesia before the coming of Islam then it would make one think that its origins cant be Islamic. Secondly if we were to study weapons in the homeland of Islam will we see anything that could at a later date have mutated into a keris? Is there a tradition of using pamor in those weapons. Is there a tradition of using meteorite in those weapons. Thirdly art, what dose Islamic art look like? Dose it permit the depiction of nature in art. I recall reading that one of the first observations of a keris in Indonesia records a straight blade with a bone handle carved in the form of a human. The human form handle is also displayed in the earliest keris. Is this something that we would expect to see in Islamic art, the literal depiction of the human form? Nagas, elephants, winged horses, dragons, birds are these things we would expect to see in Islamic art or Indian art? If we look at Islamic art do we see any of those things depicted literally? Fourthly, make a study of ancient Vedic art and weapons and you might find images that make you ponder. Fifthly the rituals that surround the keris, making weapons with supposed spirits trapped inside, is that even permitted in the Islamic religion, the use of spirits? Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread? No I have not read that thread yet, but will do so. Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links? No its no more possible for me to prove that the keris is of Indian/Aryan origin any more than it is possible for someone to prove that the keris is an Islamic weapon. In the end it comes to personal beliefs.

18th July 2007, 11:47 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	I have just finished reading the most recent posts to this thread. I am a little disappointed that such ill informed comments are being made in respect of origin, development and spread of the keris. Yes, I have written on this, but I do not ask anybody to accept without question that which I have written. Setting aside my own work, there is adequate evidence available to point anybody who can read in the direction of discovery for themselves. Regretably this evidence is for the most part contained in books that are only available in large or specialised libraries; it cannot be accessed with a mouseclick. What this means for those who do not have access to such libraries is that they must avail themselves of material that is available on the net. Much of the material available on the net in this field draws upon these previously mentioned library sources. Possibly a little time spent in research may be more valuable for some of us than the attempted support of insupportable opinions. google can work wonders.

19th July 2007, 01:42 AM	#8
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	This thread is getting more interesting, and for the same reasons similar discussions in KampungNet got thrown into the Garbage Bin. Methinks, rather than the forumers try to prove/disprove sepokal's thesis, the burden of proof should rest on him. He has made some interesting claims about the Islamic origin of the keris, along with others -- such as the last Majapahit kingdom being based in Kelantan. He now needs to show us evidence to back his claims. That is after all the foundation of learned discussion.

19th July 2007, 03:15 AM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I can assure you all that this thread as a whole will not find it's way into any "garbage bin", though there is always the chance that offensive or highly disrespectful posts could get deleted. So far nothing written here qualifies for such drastic measures and i trust it will remain so. I agree with Rahman. Since the commonly accepted wisdom as i understand it does not seem to support Sepokal's theory it would seem logical that it would be up to him to present convincing evidence to the contrary. Good luck with that.

19th July 2007, 03:33 AM	#10
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Salam to all keris afficionados, If every single theory needed to be backed up by scientific findings, archaelogical artefacts etc, then I am afraid I cant do that. You see, I am only a high school graduate, my English is so bad (I even had a tough time trying to understand some of the posts here) etc etc. However, I came from a culture (or rather 2 cultures) that has little written tradition. What I heard in the past and what I am still hearing (I am still learning the traditional way) are materials obtained from oral tradition. That's why when I suggested that keris could also be of Aryan's origin, I was expecting somebody to comment so that I can learn from others' perspective, not only from my gurus. So I hope I will not be asked to provide scientific evidence please .