keris and spirit

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by sepokal

... Again I reiterate, it is not the artistic form that come first into making a Malay keris. First and foremost, it is a weapon.

Greetings sepokal...
Hmmm... I re-read through my post again and I was wondering... did I ever mentioned or imply that artistic form comes first? Please re-read my post... what I've said was... if you look you'll find an artistic expression... crude but it's there. Keris in the Malay world is first and foremost a weapon, period.

Originally Posted by sepokal

Artistic impression and artistitic interpretation is based on those who views it and as they say, Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What you call artistic, is not to some. While you consider the extreme curves on a keris to be beautiful, some might not view it so.

True, beauty is in the eye of the beholder... so don't assume what I deem as beautiful... If other do not find it artistic, so be it... no harm done. Each is entitled to their own opinion.

Originally Posted by sepokal

Regarding Keris Majapahit. Have you ever seen a real keris Majapahit? Read again what Bambang says about keris Majapahit / Keris Sajen.

"Keris sajen dibuat khusus untuk keperluan sesaji tetapi ada yang menyebutnya sebagai keris Majapahit padahal keris Majapahit bentuknya indah dan mutunya tinggi, tidak sederhana seperti keris Sajen."

in English, "Keris Sajen is made especially for "sesaji" but some calls it Keris Majapahit while that is not so as keris Majapahit is much more beautiful and of higher quality as compared to keris Sesaji".

I suggest you don't inscribe what was mentioned in Ensiklopedi Keris into stone. Take it with a large dose of salt.

Originally Posted by sepokal

My question is, then, what really is keris Majapahit? How does it looks like?

Maybe you should ask Javanese collectors... Pak Ganjawulung and Hidayat comes to mind...

Originally Posted by sepokal

The last Majapahit kingdom was located in what we called Kelantan right now.

Hmmm... interesting... sorry my history is a bit 'rusty'. Perhaps someone else would like to comment...

Originally Posted by sepokal

There is nothing disturbing about Islam and Keris. Why is such thoughts, exist I wonder? Disturbing to Islam or that to Keris?

Hmmm... kindly re-read my post and try to understand it, please.

[PenangsangII]

Dear Kerislovers,

To say that keris comes from Hindu / Animistic culture per se is not quite accurate. If my mind serves correctly, Hinduism came to the Indian continent from the Aryans diasphora, and the present day true Aryans are Farsi people (people of Iran). So, there's a possibility that keris culture was brought to the Malay Archipelago by Iskandar Zulkarnaen (King Darius I) descendants after they had embraced Islam. In another word, It could also be Persian / Islamic Culture imbued in the early Islamic Malay kingdom of Champa in the 12th C. Thus the spiritual aspects are also partly Islamic. Just my 0.02 cents.

Warmest Salam & regards,

Penangsang

[David]

Sepokal, i hope you will go back, re-read what i and others have said, and try to find a better understanding in it.
Nowhere do i even suggest that it is inappropriate to discuss Malay keris (due to it's connection to Islam) nor am i uncomfortable with the discussion of keris and Islam either. In fact i encourage such discussion as it is obvious that in much of Indonesian and on the peninsula the keris is considered an Islamic weapon. I personally do not believe that the keris originates in Islam however. I did not say that i believe it originates in Hinduism either, though this is probably in my mind. I am even willing to entertain the notion that the keris pre-dates the influences of both these great religions. What i am not willing to entertain is debate on which is the "correct" religious or spiritual path from which to approach the keris from. Why this idea should translate in your mind into the idea that we do not or should not discuss Islam and the keris here remains a mystery to me. You are most certainly welcome to your own beliefs and to state them clearly in this forum. I certainly find nothing offensive about your beliefs or Islam in general (nor other belief systems for that matter). But what you wrote gave me the impression that you are not so tolerant of the beliefs of others that may be different form your own. Please forgive me is i have the wrong impression. Dogmatic thought that implies that your spiritual beliefs are somehow more "correct" than others will not be welcomed here. As Alan suggests, these are debates which cannot be won by any side and only leave the debaters angry with one another. They are wars not worth fighting and they wil not be fought on this forum. Period!
I do suggest that if you want to communicate your ideas here better that you start by providing English translation to the terms and phrases that i listed at the beginning of my last post. It will go a long way in breaking down any barriers of misunderstanding that may have formed between us.
As for Mojopahit keris, there have been numerous published examples of these keris and i am sure someone can provide you with so pictures soon.

[Pusaka]

I personally don’t believe that the keris has its roots as an Islamic weapon. If someone suggested to me that Stonehenge was built by Christians I would likewise disagree.
I think there is more evidence that points towards an vedic origin than an Islamic origin. It is true that the Vedic culture was introduced to India by the Aryans so maybe the keris has an Aryan origin?

[HanaChu69]

Greetings,

I agree that it’s great to exchange ideas but it looks like Tsunami has hit this thread…

Sepokal – I believe in “universal cultural keris values”. Appreciate if you could elaborate philosophy of the Malay keris for better understanding complete with referencing link (if any). Others may not be able to relate them in comparison to the Javanese keris. Some might be too busy to take the effort to read up on cultural values of the keris world.

Rick – I guess there’s no reason to panic. It’s only robust verbal discussion and not using keris or spiritual battle field. I’m sure that we will be able to forgive and forget with due respect of the coming New Year (Hari Raya Puasa).

David – I would like to highlight that sometimes it is difficult to translate Malay or Islamic terms to the English Language. The meaning and idea may get distorted. Viewers might get the wrong perception. This applies to other languages for one word can take you more than 10 sentences to elaborate including examples.

Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder. How did you derive with the above theory? Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread? Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links?

Sincerely,
Hana

P.S – The beauty of universal languages will enable you to open gates of the respective culture and values with your eyes wide open….Amazing indeed!!

[Rick]

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Rick – I guess there’s no reason to panic. It’s only robust verbal discussion and not using keris or spiritual battle field. I’m sure that we will be able to forgive and forget with due respect of the coming New Year (Hari Raya Puasa).

Thanks for your concern dear Hana ; I've been doing this too many years to panic.

I simply watch and warn.... and keep a bucket of water handy .

With respect to the use of other languages in here; I feel very strongly that translations must be given;even if it is merely the gist of the idea otherwise people may feel ... uncomfortable not knowing what is being said .

People like the Moderators.

Warmest wishes,

Rick

[David]

Hana, thank you for your thoughtful post. I do, of course, agree with you that it isn't always easy to translate words and concepts from one cultural reality to another. But if it takes 10 word or 10 paragraphs to successfully translate an idea it must be done, otherwise why bother writing it to begin with. What is written in this forum must be useful to all, not just a select few who understand the terms being thrown about. While ideas my get distorted from time to time it is better than half the audience or more having absolutely no understanding of the terms being used. I am afraid that if we are going to come to any understanding we must make the effort to translate no matter how difficult it may seem.

[Pusaka]

Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder.

Well that is most refreshing to know

How did you derive with the above theory?

Firstly I know that the keris was in Indonesia before the coming of Islam so if it was in Indonesia before the coming of Islam then it would make one think that its origins cant be Islamic.

Secondly if we were to study weapons in the homeland of Islam will we see anything that could at a later date have mutated into a keris? Is there a tradition of using pamor in those weapons. Is there a tradition of using meteorite in those weapons.

Thirdly art, what dose Islamic art look like? Dose it permit the depiction of nature in art. I recall reading that one of the first observations of a keris in Indonesia records a straight blade with a bone handle carved in the form of a human. The human form handle is also displayed in the earliest keris. Is this something that we would expect to see in Islamic art, the literal depiction of the human form?
Nagas, elephants, winged horses, dragons, birds are these things we would expect to see in Islamic art or Indian art? If we look at Islamic art do we see any of those things depicted literally?

Fourthly, make a study of ancient Vedic art and weapons and you might find images that make you ponder.

Fifthly the rituals that surround the keris, making weapons with supposed spirits trapped inside, is that even permitted in the Islamic religion, the use of spirits?

Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread?

No I have not read that thread yet, but will do so.

Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links?

No its no more possible for me to prove that the keris is of Indian/Aryan origin any more than it is possible for someone to prove that the keris is an Islamic weapon. In the end it comes to personal beliefs.

[A. G. Maisey]

I have just finished reading the most recent posts to this thread.

I am a little disappointed that such ill informed comments are being made in respect of origin, development and spread of the keris.

Yes, I have written on this, but I do not ask anybody to accept without question that which I have written. Setting aside my own work, there is adequate evidence available to point anybody who can read in the direction of discovery for themselves.

Regretably this evidence is for the most part contained in books that are only available in large or specialised libraries; it cannot be accessed with a mouseclick. What this means for those who do not have access to such libraries is that they must avail themselves of material that is available on the net. Much of the material available on the net in this field draws upon these previously mentioned library sources.

Possibly a little time spent in research may be more valuable for some of us than the attempted support of insupportable opinions.

google can work wonders.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear Kerislovers,

To say that keris comes from Hindu / Animistic culture per se is not quite accurate. If my mind serves correctly, Hinduism came to the Indian continent from the Aryans diasphora, and the present day true Aryans are Farsi people (people of Iran). So, there's a possibility that keris culture was brought to the Malay Archipelago by Iskandar Zulkarnaen (King Darius I) descendants after they had embraced Islam.

Hmmm... fuzzy history... are there any archaeological findings, weapons of such nature or even one that resembles the keris... their weapons making methods during that period suggests otherwise...

In another word, It could also be Persian / Islamic Culture imbued in the early Islamic Malay kingdom of Champa in the 12th C. Thus the spiritual aspects are also partly Islamic. Just my 0.02 cents.

If this is the case, why is there no legacy of such a weapon found around that region... hmmm...

[Alam Shah]

Just to set the record straight... I did not mention that keris is of Hindu origin. What I mentioned was Majapahit kerises are made during the Hindu period... Please read carefully...
Keris exist before that time as we've known already...