keris and spirit

[David]

Originally Posted by sepokal

dua kalimah syahadah, Adil (Meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya), Awalluddin Makrifatullah, "makhluk", Malaikat bernafsu, kashaf, Kebal, hulubalang, azimat, amalan, "dampingan", tidak meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya, "isyarat"

C'mon Sepokal, you should know the terms of this forum by now. I do recognize a couple of these terms and i might be able to infer the meanings of a couple of others through your usage, but this is very clearly an English forum and if we are truly all going to understand each other it is imperative that we all communicate in a common language. I have no problem with other lamguages (in fact i encourage them) as long as an accurate translation is also provided. You host is, afterall, this English speaking forum. To do anything else would show the greatest disrespect.
As for what i clearly understand in your last post i will say this...Clearly there is more than just the Islamic interpretation of keris to be considered here. It was a Hindu weapon long before the coming of Islam to the region and before that its traditions may have been even more indigenous and animistic, traditions whose current continued through keris culture to this very day. I genuinely respect anyone"s way of relating to the keris in the spiritual tradition of their choice so your imperative to "correct" those who do not do this as you or Islam sees fit worries me greatly. Likewise you assertion that discussions of the keris and mysticism cannot be seperated from Islam is troublesome for me. This has been, IMO, a long and fruitful thread which i would like to see continue, but make no mistake, if the conversation degrades into a battle of religions and dogma i will shut it down in a heartbeat.
I am sorry if i may have misunderstood the underlying intention of your post, but if i have it only serves to demonstrate the ultimate importance of complete translations to assure everyone has a full understanding of the concepts being discussed.
Likewise, as Rick has already stated, old arguments from other forums need to stay there and not be brought into this forum.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by sepokal

Hence, for Malays, keris must never be separated from amalan and religion and foremost for Malay's Keris is knowing that it is a weapon, not an artistic expression and being a weapon, it's job is to kill when requested to.

Hmmm... your opinion seems absolute. I believe, it's the hand that guides the keris to do its intended task. Not an artistic expression? I beg to differ... if you choose to venture into it's simple-looking, sub-lime looks... you'll find the artistic expression, imho.

Originally Posted by sepokal

Hence, Malay keris that is considered lucky are those that protects it's owner's life when in danger.

I agree about the lucky part, but it does apply to all keris in general, though.

Originally Posted by sepokal

That luck comes from a certain part of the Malay Keris which is very much attached to Islam. Many a name given to parts of the Malay keris is with knowledge of understanding the need of a weapon that does not stray away from Islam

A question: Why do certain Malays still regards that the Majapahit keris, have a strong supernatural element?

Majapahit is a Javanese-Hindu kingdom, it's empus are Hindus too. Many symbolism in the keris are Hindu inspired. Most likely the 'beings' within are too... (speculating).

Keris in the Malayan Peninsular have many influences from different belief system... the malay keris are likewise...

I find it rather disturbing... emphasizing that keris is Islamic.
What I do believe... names can be changed... ideals modified to follow suit...
For those whom are of different belief system, one would treat the keris within their own cultural/religious context...

Originally Posted by sepokal

Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" through cracks.

Hmmm... in my opinion, this is make belief. When a smith is unable to forge properly a blade, this might be the excuse... imo only... hmmm.
Alan, you've made keris blades, care to elaborate, please?

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for the invite Alam Shah, but I'm going to stay out of this one.

Being a man who loves peace, and having a personal life that requires me to co-exist in harmony with Muslims, Taoists, Buddhists, Russian Orthodox, and devout atheists, I have learnt that debate about anything that somebody else firmly believes is a total waste of time.

All religions are belief systems.

I will walk 20 miles to avoid any sort of debate that touches on religion.

My response to all of Sepokal's post would simply be that he is entitled to believe whatever he wishes to believe. There is no profit for any of us in arguing for a different point of view.

[sepokal]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for the invite Alam Shah, but I'm going to stay out of this one.

Being a man who loves peace, and having a personal life that requires me to co-exist in harmony Muslims, Taoists, Buddhists, Russian Orthodox, and devout atheists, I have learnt that debate about anything that somebody else firmly believes is a total waste of time.

All religions are belief systems.

I will walk 20 miles to avoid any sort of debate that touches on religion.

My response to all of Sepokal's post would simply be that he is entitled to believe whatever he wishes to believe. There is no profit for any of us in arguing for a different point of view.

A path that should be taken by everyone. There is no harm done here I hope, because what I just did was to write accordingly to what was known to me and what was enquired.

Regards,
sepokal

[sepokal]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hmmm... your opinion seems absolute. I believe, it's the hand that guides the keris to do its intended task. Not an artistic expression? I beg to differ... if you choose to venture into it's simple-looking, sub-lime looks... you're find the artistic expression, imho.

I agree about the lucky part, but it does apply to all keris in general, though.

A question: Why do certain Malays still regards that the Majapahit keris, have a strong supernatural element?

Majapahit is a Javanese-Hindu kingdom, it's empus are Hindus too. Many symbolism in the keris are Hindu inspired. Most likely the 'beings' within are too... (speculating).

Keris in the Malayan Peninsular have many influences from different belief system... the malay keris are likewise...

I find it rather disturbing... emphasizing that keris is Islamic.
What I do believe... names are changed... ideals are modified to follow suit...
For those whom are of different belief system, one would treat the keris within their own cultural/religious context...

Hmmm... im my opinion, this is make belief. When a smith is unable to forge properly a blade, this might be the excuse... imo only... hmmm.

Alan, you've made keris blades, care to elaborate, please?

Dear Alam Shah,

Again I reiterate, it is not the artistic form that come first into making a Malay keris. First and foremost, it is a weapon. Artistic impression and artistitic interpretation is based on those who views it and as they say, Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What you call artistic, is not to some. While you consider the extreme curves on a keris to be beautiful, some might not view it so.

Regarding Keris Majapahit. Have you ever seen a real keris Majapahit? Read again what Bambang says about keris Majapahit / Keris Sajen.

"Keris sajen dibuat khusus untuk keperluan sesaji tetapi ada yang menyebutnya sebagai keris Majapahit padahal keris Majapahit bentuknya indah dan mutunya tinggi, tidak sederhana seperti keris Sajen."

in English, "Keris Sajen is made especially for "sesaji" but some calls it Keris Majapahit while that is not so as keris Majapahit is much more beautiful and of higher quality as compared to keris Sesaji".

My question is, then, what really is keris Majapahit? How does it looks like?

The last Majapahit kingdom was located in what we called Kelantan right now. There is nothing disturbing about Islam and Keris. Why is such thoughts, exist I wonder? Disturbing to Islam or that to Keris?


Alam Shah, pamor that exist in most Javanese keris are based on made belief too. I guess, it will always be part and parcel of keris lovers to go through this "made belief" stories.

Regards,
sepokal

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by sepokal

... Again I reiterate, it is not the artistic form that come first into making a Malay keris. First and foremost, it is a weapon.

Greetings sepokal...
Hmmm... I re-read through my post again and I was wondering... did I ever mentioned or imply that artistic form comes first? Please re-read my post... what I've said was... if you look you'll find an artistic expression... crude but it's there. Keris in the Malay world is first and foremost a weapon, period.

Originally Posted by sepokal

Artistic impression and artistitic interpretation is based on those who views it and as they say, Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What you call artistic, is not to some. While you consider the extreme curves on a keris to be beautiful, some might not view it so.

True, beauty is in the eye of the beholder... so don't assume what I deem as beautiful... If other do not find it artistic, so be it... no harm done. Each is entitled to their own opinion.

Originally Posted by sepokal

Regarding Keris Majapahit. Have you ever seen a real keris Majapahit? Read again what Bambang says about keris Majapahit / Keris Sajen.

"Keris sajen dibuat khusus untuk keperluan sesaji tetapi ada yang menyebutnya sebagai keris Majapahit padahal keris Majapahit bentuknya indah dan mutunya tinggi, tidak sederhana seperti keris Sajen."

in English, "Keris Sajen is made especially for "sesaji" but some calls it Keris Majapahit while that is not so as keris Majapahit is much more beautiful and of higher quality as compared to keris Sesaji".

I suggest you don't inscribe what was mentioned in Ensiklopedi Keris into stone. Take it with a large dose of salt.

Originally Posted by sepokal

My question is, then, what really is keris Majapahit? How does it looks like?

Maybe you should ask Javanese collectors... Pak Ganjawulung and Hidayat comes to mind...

Originally Posted by sepokal

The last Majapahit kingdom was located in what we called Kelantan right now.

Hmmm... interesting... sorry my history is a bit 'rusty'. Perhaps someone else would like to comment...

Originally Posted by sepokal

There is nothing disturbing about Islam and Keris. Why is such thoughts, exist I wonder? Disturbing to Islam or that to Keris?

Hmmm... kindly re-read my post and try to understand it, please.

[PenangsangII]

Dear Kerislovers,

To say that keris comes from Hindu / Animistic culture per se is not quite accurate. If my mind serves correctly, Hinduism came to the Indian continent from the Aryans diasphora, and the present day true Aryans are Farsi people (people of Iran). So, there's a possibility that keris culture was brought to the Malay Archipelago by Iskandar Zulkarnaen (King Darius I) descendants after they had embraced Islam. In another word, It could also be Persian / Islamic Culture imbued in the early Islamic Malay kingdom of Champa in the 12th C. Thus the spiritual aspects are also partly Islamic. Just my 0.02 cents.

Warmest Salam & regards,

Penangsang

[David]

Sepokal, i hope you will go back, re-read what i and others have said, and try to find a better understanding in it.
Nowhere do i even suggest that it is inappropriate to discuss Malay keris (due to it's connection to Islam) nor am i uncomfortable with the discussion of keris and Islam either. In fact i encourage such discussion as it is obvious that in much of Indonesian and on the peninsula the keris is considered an Islamic weapon. I personally do not believe that the keris originates in Islam however. I did not say that i believe it originates in Hinduism either, though this is probably in my mind. I am even willing to entertain the notion that the keris pre-dates the influences of both these great religions. What i am not willing to entertain is debate on which is the "correct" religious or spiritual path from which to approach the keris from. Why this idea should translate in your mind into the idea that we do not or should not discuss Islam and the keris here remains a mystery to me. You are most certainly welcome to your own beliefs and to state them clearly in this forum. I certainly find nothing offensive about your beliefs or Islam in general (nor other belief systems for that matter). But what you wrote gave me the impression that you are not so tolerant of the beliefs of others that may be different form your own. Please forgive me is i have the wrong impression. Dogmatic thought that implies that your spiritual beliefs are somehow more "correct" than others will not be welcomed here. As Alan suggests, these are debates which cannot be won by any side and only leave the debaters angry with one another. They are wars not worth fighting and they wil not be fought on this forum. Period!
I do suggest that if you want to communicate your ideas here better that you start by providing English translation to the terms and phrases that i listed at the beginning of my last post. It will go a long way in breaking down any barriers of misunderstanding that may have formed between us.
As for Mojopahit keris, there have been numerous published examples of these keris and i am sure someone can provide you with so pictures soon.

[Pusaka]

I personally don’t believe that the keris has its roots as an Islamic weapon. If someone suggested to me that Stonehenge was built by Christians I would likewise disagree.
I think there is more evidence that points towards an vedic origin than an Islamic origin. It is true that the Vedic culture was introduced to India by the Aryans so maybe the keris has an Aryan origin?

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear Kerislovers,

To say that keris comes from Hindu / Animistic culture per se is not quite accurate. If my mind serves correctly, Hinduism came to the Indian continent from the Aryans diasphora, and the present day true Aryans are Farsi people (people of Iran). So, there's a possibility that keris culture was brought to the Malay Archipelago by Iskandar Zulkarnaen (King Darius I) descendants after they had embraced Islam.

Hmmm... fuzzy history... are there any archaeological findings, weapons of such nature or even one that resembles the keris... their weapons making methods during that period suggests otherwise...

In another word, It could also be Persian / Islamic Culture imbued in the early Islamic Malay kingdom of Champa in the 12th C. Thus the spiritual aspects are also partly Islamic. Just my 0.02 cents.

If this is the case, why is there no legacy of such a weapon found around that region... hmmm...

[Alam Shah]

Just to set the record straight... I did not mention that keris is of Hindu origin. What I mentioned was Majapahit kerises are made during the Hindu period... Please read carefully...
Keris exist before that time as we've known already...

[sepokal]

Dear David,

Please don't misinterpret me. First and foremost, the idea or concept that keris came from Hinduism can be contested. Many researchers of keris have stated that although, by default, it is recognised that keris originated or is inspired from Hinduism, but they were unable to prove otherwise. Hence, they presume through Candi Sukor Relief that Keris originated from Hinduism. If one were to look at the History of Patani and you might realised that Islam have came long before 1400. In fact, there are documents that states that Islam have arrived to this region as early as the third Khalif, which is Khalifah Osman. Keris is part of Patani's culture back then. In fact, it is used by the famous Wali Songo in their mission to spread Islam to this part of Asia. There are reasons to belief the forefathers of most of the Wali Songo, in which most of them are related to, was Sheikh Jamadil Al Kubra. He was very much active, during his time, in Patani (early 1300). Hence, to state for a fact that Keris originated from Hinduism just because of a relief discovered at Candi Sukor (dated 1400 plus) is still not strong enough.

As most of the forumers are more comfortable talking about keris and Hinduism, I don't see any reason why forumers should be uncomfortable to keris and Islam. Nevertheless, I understand that most of the forumers are discussing keris based on Javanese Keris hence, it is understandable when most reference book would be discussing Javanese keris as compared to Malay Keris. It is also understandable that, history wise, it will be based on these books too.

Regarding old argument, it's bygone, long time ago. Please don't close this thread as I have no intention to bring any old argument into this forum. Don't worry, if there are any who would like to challenge or create havoc in this forum, I'm sure the relevant people knows how to handle this. On my part, my writing is sincerely a must for my friends and those who knows.

Currently, I'm not into forum anymore. It just happen that my friend Penangsang requested from this forum my views and I did my best to explain. If anyone find my writings rather offensive, my apologies and you are welcome to delete it.

If you notice, I've not written in this forum, for like...forever, not until recently. There's is just too much to write about Malay Keris and it's mysticism. Unfortunately, (or rather fortunately), I'm more towards Malay Keris and it's hidden secrets. Malay keris is very much related to Islam. Hence, due to that fact I guess, probably it is not appropriate for me to discuss it here, where most are more familiar with Javanese keris. Again, my apologies.

[Alam Shah]

Hmmm... I guess I'll take a walk in the other direction...
To each their own...