PI Kris for ID and Comments

Battara · 7th March 2005, 03:06 PM

I had to make my own gravers out of tempered steel, but small enough to fit into the grooves and re-ingrave the channels. Very time consuming process. And it is not just the depth but the angle of the cuts that is very important.

moose · 7th March 2005, 03:27 PM

Battara,
What are your thoughts about the golden metal inlaid on this kris?
Maker's Mark? Isn't it odd, the one piece inlaid in the long channel?

I think this is what Frederico is refering to when he wonders if the whole thing had been inlaid at onetime.

Spunjer,
No, I haven't tried etching it yet. I have done some lime juice etching on some daggers I'll be posting later.
I have purchaced some of the etchant Radio Shack sells and read up on previous threads. But I'm not ready to try something like that on this beauty.

Going to practice some more on some of my "less dear to my heart stuff" first.
Don't want any major mistakes.

moose

Battara · 8th March 2005, 03:27 AM

Moose, you have a wonderful piece there (envy, envy, grumble, grumble....). I know that some engraving on blades are too shallow to have been inlaid. On your piece I am surprised to see inlay. This may raise a whole new set of questions for me and for the field if inlay were common in the engraving of these blades and just popped out. I do not think this is a maker's mark (especially since Filipinos/Moros/Indonesians did not use maker's marks) but perhaps a talismanic design. I think there could be a good argument for your whole blade once being inlaid seeing the pics you have posted. The material is a little harder to discern from the pics, it could be gold, brass, or tarnished silver (which can get a yellow-brownish oxidation depending upon the grade of silver and environmental chemical exposure). It looks to me that the whole channel was once inlaid and that most of it popped out.

By the way, etch the puppy and see what surprises are in store for you.

Federico · 8th March 2005, 04:12 AM

Now Jose, if more Moro swords originally had inlays, then that means more collectors are gonna need to send you their swords for restoration

Anyways, I know what you mean about the shallow grooves. On my one kris with some inlay remaining, in many spots where the inlay has popped out the engraving is so shallow it is almost invisible. Id like to say oh this is the un-inlayed part, but then there is the matching star on the left that still has inlay. I suppose we could get inlay happy re-doing every sword with engraving, but it does make you wonder. Corrosion or on purpose.

moose · 8th March 2005, 12:11 PM

Now no one has mentioned the fiber wrapping on the second kris.
I would think that this could not be as old as the blade and ivory cockatoo. Maybe re-wrapped somewhere around or just before WWII?

Any thoughts on the material? What was commonly used? Jute?, palm fibers? Some other local fiber bearing plant? If around WWII maybe hemp?

moose

Bill · 8th March 2005, 05:21 PM

Like your choice in blades. As strange as it sounds both blades may be 18thC, the first from Mindanao (Maguindanao?), the second Sulawesi (my opinion). The first is trying to emulate the style of the second. I have 2 kris in the second type, one is very much like yours, it has a oval tang 3/8 x 5/8"; I would not be surprised if yours did not have the same. (as a side note, mine has a ferrule made of Carabao horn). The original wrap may have dozens of things. Ratten, different grasses, bark cloth, or silk & ratten wraps. If you decide to remove it, it would be nice to see a picture of it, naked. Bet the stirup was made of the same metal as the blade. Does the blade strike you as a bit different than the first blade, like the second has a higher nickle content. The stirup likely started out about 4.5 x .25", split down the center for about 2.5", hammered nicely to hit around the blade, filed & welded back together again to fit over the gangya.

moose · 9th March 2005, 06:08 PM

Bill,
The second blade is always brighter. Never dulls or tarnishes anymore than it is. Would that mean to you that it has a higher nickle content?

I always thought the first blade was old. The arrowheads were just not done as elegantly. From my limited knowledge of smithing producing the second blade would mean your on a whole different level of smithing. Either blade was done compently.

I appreciate your post.

moose

7th March 2005, 03:06 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I had to make my own gravers out of tempered steel, but small enough to fit into the grooves and re-ingrave the channels. Very time consuming process. And it is not just the depth but the angle of the cuts that is very important.

7th March 2005, 03:27 PM	#2
moose Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portage, Michigan USA Posts: 44	Battara, What are your thoughts about the golden metal inlaid on this kris? Maker's Mark? Isn't it odd, the one piece inlaid in the long channel? I think this is what Frederico is refering to when he wonders if the whole thing had been inlaid at onetime. Spunjer, No, I haven't tried etching it yet. I have done some lime juice etching on some daggers I'll be posting later. I have purchaced some of the etchant Radio Shack sells and read up on previous threads. But I'm not ready to try something like that on this beauty. Going to practice some more on some of my "less dear to my heart stuff" first. Don't want any major mistakes. moose

8th March 2005, 03:27 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Moose, you have a wonderful piece there (envy, envy, grumble, grumble....). I know that some engraving on blades are too shallow to have been inlaid. On your piece I am surprised to see inlay. This may raise a whole new set of questions for me and for the field if inlay were common in the engraving of these blades and just popped out. I do not think this is a maker's mark (especially since Filipinos/Moros/Indonesians did not use maker's marks) but perhaps a talismanic design. I think there could be a good argument for your whole blade once being inlaid seeing the pics you have posted. The material is a little harder to discern from the pics, it could be gold, brass, or tarnished silver (which can get a yellow-brownish oxidation depending upon the grade of silver and environmental chemical exposure). It looks to me that the whole channel was once inlaid and that most of it popped out. By the way, etch the puppy and see what surprises are in store for you.

8th March 2005, 04:12 AM	#4
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Now Jose, if more Moro swords originally had inlays, then that means more collectors are gonna need to send you their swords for restoration Anyways, I know what you mean about the shallow grooves. On my one kris with some inlay remaining, in many spots where the inlay has popped out the engraving is so shallow it is almost invisible. Id like to say oh this is the un-inlayed part, but then there is the matching star on the left that still has inlay. I suppose we could get inlay happy re-doing every sword with engraving, but it does make you wonder. Corrosion or on purpose.

8th March 2005, 12:11 PM	#5
moose Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portage, Michigan USA Posts: 44	Now no one has mentioned the fiber wrapping on the second kris. I would think that this could not be as old as the blade and ivory cockatoo. Maybe re-wrapped somewhere around or just before WWII? Any thoughts on the material? What was commonly used? Jute?, palm fibers? Some other local fiber bearing plant? If around WWII maybe hemp? moose

8th March 2005, 05:21 PM	#6
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Like your choice in blades. As strange as it sounds both blades may be 18thC, the first from Mindanao (Maguindanao?), the second Sulawesi (my opinion). The first is trying to emulate the style of the second. I have 2 kris in the second type, one is very much like yours, it has a oval tang 3/8 x 5/8"; I would not be surprised if yours did not have the same. (as a side note, mine has a ferrule made of Carabao horn). The original wrap may have dozens of things. Ratten, different grasses, bark cloth, or silk & ratten wraps. If you decide to remove it, it would be nice to see a picture of it, naked. Bet the stirup was made of the same metal as the blade. Does the blade strike you as a bit different than the first blade, like the second has a higher nickle content. The stirup likely started out about 4.5 x .25", split down the center for about 2.5", hammered nicely to hit around the blade, filed & welded back together again to fit over the gangya.

9th March 2005, 06:08 PM	#7
moose Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portage, Michigan USA Posts: 44	Bill, The second blade is always brighter. Never dulls or tarnishes anymore than it is. Would that mean to you that it has a higher nickle content? I always thought the first blade was old. The arrowheads were just not done as elegantly. From my limited knowledge of smithing producing the second blade would mean your on a whole different level of smithing. Either blade was done compently. I appreciate your post. moose