keris and spirit

ganjawulung · 16th July 2007, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear all,

I think we cannot discount the possibility of Chinese influence with regards to the natural balace of Yin & Yang. We are aware that the Chinese have sailed around the world long before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

This is just another illustration on the Chinese influence on Indonesian culture. The first king of Islamic kingdom of Demak, Raden Patah (1478-1518), is the son of the last King Brawijaya (Majapahit) and Princess of Champa -- China. The Chinese name of Raden Patah is Jin Bun.

One of the 13 kings/queens and 2 rulers of Majapahit, is a real Chinese. He was Nyoo Lay Wa (1478-1486), after Majapahit was attacked and conquered by Jin Bun of Demak. The king of Majapahit at that time was Kertabhumi, the father of Jin Bun... That's only a few influence of Chinese to Javanese in the past. (See, "The Fall of Javanese-Hindu Kingdom and the Rise of Islamic States in Nusantara" by Prof Dr Slamet Muljana, 1968)

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2007, 11:16 PM

There can be no doubt that Chinese culture has influenced the cultures of maritime South East Asia, including much of present day Indonesia and including Jawa. However, there have been other major cultural influences on Javanese culture also, apart from that core part of Javanese culture which is indigenous.

If one is traditional Chinese, and has an excellent understanding of Chinese philosophy, it may be possible for one to transpose the yin-yang of Chinese philosophy onto Javanese culture in an attempt to come to some understanding of Javanese philosophy. However, this would be a Chinese understanding of Javanese philosophy.

If one is of European origin, and has an excellent understanding of one or more of the schools of European philosophy, it may be possible to transpose some of those European concepts onto Javanese culture, in an attempt to understand the philosophies guiding that Javanese culture, but again, this would be a European understanding of Javanese philosophy.

The element of Javanese indigenous philosophy which seems to come closest to the Chinese idea of yin-yang is the well known Javanese principle of dualism, however, this principle does not appear to be an assimilation of Chinese philosophy and its adaptation to the Javanese cultural framework, rather it appears to be an idea woven into the original fabric of Javanese thought. If we transpose concepts foriegn to Javanese culture onto that culture in our attempts to understand elements and ideas that form a part of the culture, then what we are doing is perhaps of assistance to us as individuals to allow us to come to terms with a Javanese idea within a framework that we can understand.

In the present example, if we are Chinese and we liken Javanese dualism to the Chinese concept of yin-yang, then as Chinese we have reconstructed a complex Javanese idea in a form that allows us a limited understanding of that Javanese principle. However, the key word here is "limited". If we are to have an understanding of the Javanese principle, as it is understood in a traditional Javanese context, then we need to make the effort to understand Javanese culture and society, and the philosophic principles which are the weft of the fabric of that culture, and of that society. Only by doing this can we come to a position where we may see and try to understand elements within a culture which are of that culture.

kai · 16th July 2007, 11:36 PM

Hello pak Ganja,

Please excuse a small correction:

Quote:

This is just another illustration on the Chinese influence on Indonesian culture. The first king of Islamic kingdom of Demak, Raden Patah (1478-1518), is the son of the last King Brawijaya (Majapahit) and Princess of Champa -- China.

The kingdom(s) of Champa had little to do with China and were never under rule of any ethnic Han AFAIK: as wet rice growers, their territory focused on the narrow plains along the central mountain range of today's Vietnam. They rose to regional power and wealth by their ports being a major stepping stone for the maritime trade and converted to Hindu culture like contemporary kingdoms in continental Southeast Asia (cp. Angkor Wat) as well as throughout the SEA archipelago (e.g. Majapahit). Thus, it's not surprising that they kept close ties with Khmer, Javanese, Sumatran, Malayan royal families...

Regards,
Kai

Pusaka · 17th July 2007, 01:07 AM

Because a culture recognizes the existence of duality dose not mean it is Chinese yin/yang influence. Every culture on Earth have known and understood the existence of duality since ancient times. The western equivilint of Yin and yang is Sol and Luna (literally Sun and moon). Likewise the five elements have been understood by all ancient civilizations, it dose not mean they also got it from the Chinese.

Chinese five elements: water,wood,fire,metal,earth

Western five elements: earth,fire,water,air,quintessence

The concept of the five elements is also understood by the Indonesians if I remember correctly (Bumi,air,angina,api,besi.

Indian culture also have this knowledge. Thing is when we hear the concept of duality or the five elements mentioned people think it must be Chinese philosophy, completely incorrect.

A. G. Maisey · 17th July 2007, 01:45 AM

Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written.

If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?

David · 17th July 2007, 02:41 AM

It is indeed true that many different cultures have come to understand the universe and their environments with similarly structured systems of thought, but as Alan states, they all have very indigenous understandings through these stuctures and one system cannot be automatically substitited for another. For instance, there is, as Pusaka states, a system of 5 elements that exists both in Western European occult practices and in Chinese philosophies. But even if you examine the 3 elements that are common to these systems, Earth, Fire and Water, i beieve you will find vastly different meanings and correspondences to them. Yes, the 5 elements may have been understood by many different cultures, but these understandings do not necessarily amount to the same "truth".

Pusaka · 17th July 2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written.

If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?

No not meant to be a response to what you wrote but more generally if during the manufacture of a keris the Indonesians consider the marriage of the dual natures of iron from earth and meteorite from sky it should not be considered Chinese influence. I’m just saying that many cultures have the ability to understand such concepts without consulting or borrowing from the Chinese, such things are universal and universally understood by all cultures.

HanaChu69 · 17th July 2007, 05:44 PM

Definition of Yin and Yang

Yīn (陰 or 阴 "shady place, north slope, south bank (river); cloudy, overcast"; Japanese: in or on) is the dark element: it is passive, dark, feminine, downward-seeking, and corresponds to the night.

Yáng (陽 or 阳 "sunny place, south slope, north bank (river), sunshine"; Japanese: yō) is the bright element: it is active, light, masculine, upward-seeking and corresponds to the daytime.

Yin is often symbolized by water and earth, while yang is symbolized by fire and wind.

Yin (the receptive, feminine, dark, passive force) and yang (the creative, masculine, bright, active force) are descriptions of complementary opposites rather than absolutes. Any yin/yang dichotomy can be viewed from another perspective. All forces in nature can be seen as having yin and yang states, and the two are in movement rather than held in absolute stasis.

Metal (Classification Elements)

“Metal, or gold, is one of the five elements of Chinese alchemy. The archetypal metals are silver and gold. Metal is associated with the west and autumn, the planet Venus and the colour white. It is believed to govern the lungs. It is associated with organization and stability.

Other qualities associated with metal are unyieldingness, persistence, strength and determination. The metal person is forceful and set in their ways as metal is very strong, but they are self-reliant and enjoy the good things in life. The element metal plays an important role in Chinese astrology and feng shui, the Chinese form of geomancy.”

HanaChu69 · 17th July 2007, 05:45 PM

Greetings,

I would like to highlight some points on the given comments. It’s cool to exchange views…

Pusaka – The analogy did not confuse me at all. If I place myself looking at the views from your angle, I’m able to relate per se.

Bram & Pak Alan – I have the same opinion with both of you. It could be that our mind set (school of thoughts) and “olah rasa” inner/spiritual feeling tells us differently. That’s the reason why our view on Ying and Yang totally doesn’t relate with the Javanese keris culture.

Penangsang – You are right, in principle; they are almost similar but different context. In Chinese philosophy, metal element is applicable to human being generically used in Geomancy; Chinese Astrology and Feng Shui. In Javanese keris philosophy, it is specifically termed to the spirit of the keris such as “Kiai Setan Kober” etc.

This is my perception. Do feel free to comment.

Sincerely,
Hana

Kiai Carita · 17th July 2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello pak Ganja,

Please excuse a small correction:

The kingdom(s) of Champa had little to do with China and were never under rule of any ethnic Han AFAIK: as wet rice growers, their territory focused on the narrow plains along the central mountain range of today's Vietnam. They rose to regional power and wealth by their ports being a major stepping stone for the maritime trade and converted to Hindu culture like contemporary kingdoms in continental Southeast Asia (cp. Angkor Wat) as well as throughout the SEA archipelago (e.g. Majapahit). Thus, it's not surprising that they kept close ties with Khmer, Javanese, Sumatran, Malayan royal families...

Regards,
Kai

Interesting point about Putri Cempa. Cheng ho's armada visited Majapahit and Tuban though... there was a lot of Chinese influence during the times when China ruled the waves. Also it appears that to the Jawanese all lighter skined Asian foreigners were thought of as Campa / China. For a long time we thought that the Mongols of Kubilai Khan with their Korean horses (now still in Jawa called Jaran Kore), the Campans, and the several tribes of China were one and the same people. Maybe a little like in rural Jawa to this day every white person is Londo, Dutch.

Salams all,
Bram

17th July 2007, 05:45 PM	#9
HanaChu69 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 29	Greetings, I would like to highlight some points on the given comments. It’s cool to exchange views… Pusaka – The analogy did not confuse me at all. If I place myself looking at the views from your angle, I’m able to relate per se. Bram & Pak Alan – I have the same opinion with both of you. It could be that our mind set (school of thoughts) and “olah rasa” inner/spiritual feeling tells us differently. That’s the reason why our view on Ying and Yang totally doesn’t relate with the Javanese keris culture. Penangsang – You are right, in principle; they are almost similar but different context. In Chinese philosophy, metal element is applicable to human being generically used in Geomancy; Chinese Astrology and Feng Shui. In Javanese keris philosophy, it is specifically termed to the spirit of the keris such as “Kiai Setan Kober” etc. This is my perception. Do feel free to comment. Sincerely, Hana Last edited by HanaChu69; 17th July 2007 at 06:15 PM.

16th July 2007, 11:16 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	There can be no doubt that Chinese culture has influenced the cultures of maritime South East Asia, including much of present day Indonesia and including Jawa. However, there have been other major cultural influences on Javanese culture also, apart from that core part of Javanese culture which is indigenous. If one is traditional Chinese, and has an excellent understanding of Chinese philosophy, it may be possible for one to transpose the yin-yang of Chinese philosophy onto Javanese culture in an attempt to come to some understanding of Javanese philosophy. However, this would be a Chinese understanding of Javanese philosophy. If one is of European origin, and has an excellent understanding of one or more of the schools of European philosophy, it may be possible to transpose some of those European concepts onto Javanese culture, in an attempt to understand the philosophies guiding that Javanese culture, but again, this would be a European understanding of Javanese philosophy. The element of Javanese indigenous philosophy which seems to come closest to the Chinese idea of yin-yang is the well known Javanese principle of dualism, however, this principle does not appear to be an assimilation of Chinese philosophy and its adaptation to the Javanese cultural framework, rather it appears to be an idea woven into the original fabric of Javanese thought. If we transpose concepts foriegn to Javanese culture onto that culture in our attempts to understand elements and ideas that form a part of the culture, then what we are doing is perhaps of assistance to us as individuals to allow us to come to terms with a Javanese idea within a framework that we can understand. In the present example, if we are Chinese and we liken Javanese dualism to the Chinese concept of yin-yang, then as Chinese we have reconstructed a complex Javanese idea in a form that allows us a limited understanding of that Javanese principle. However, the key word here is "limited". If we are to have an understanding of the Javanese principle, as it is understood in a traditional Javanese context, then we need to make the effort to understand Javanese culture and society, and the philosophic principles which are the weft of the fabric of that culture, and of that society. Only by doing this can we come to a position where we may see and try to understand elements within a culture which are of that culture.

17th July 2007, 01:07 AM	#4
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Because a culture recognizes the existence of duality dose not mean it is Chinese yin/yang influence. Every culture on Earth have known and understood the existence of duality since ancient times. The western equivilint of Yin and yang is Sol and Luna (literally Sun and moon). Likewise the five elements have been understood by all ancient civilizations, it dose not mean they also got it from the Chinese. Chinese five elements: water,wood,fire,metal,earth Western five elements: earth,fire,water,air,quintessence The concept of the five elements is also understood by the Indonesians if I remember correctly (Bumi,air,angina,api,besi. Indian culture also have this knowledge. Thing is when we hear the concept of duality or the five elements mentioned people think it must be Chinese philosophy, completely incorrect.

17th July 2007, 01:45 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written. If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?

17th July 2007, 02:41 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	It is indeed true that many different cultures have come to understand the universe and their environments with similarly structured systems of thought, but as Alan states, they all have very indigenous understandings through these stuctures and one system cannot be automatically substitited for another. For instance, there is, as Pusaka states, a system of 5 elements that exists both in Western European occult practices and in Chinese philosophies. But even if you examine the 3 elements that are common to these systems, Earth, Fire and Water, i beieve you will find vastly different meanings and correspondences to them. Yes, the 5 elements may have been understood by many different cultures, but these understandings do not necessarily amount to the same "truth".

17th July 2007, 05:44 PM	#8
HanaChu69 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 29	Definition of Yin and Yang Yīn (陰 or 阴 "shady place, north slope, south bank (river); cloudy, overcast"; Japanese: in or on) is the dark element: it is passive, dark, feminine, downward-seeking, and corresponds to the night. Yáng (陽 or 阳 "sunny place, south slope, north bank (river), sunshine"; Japanese: yō) is the bright element: it is active, light, masculine, upward-seeking and corresponds to the daytime. Yin is often symbolized by water and earth, while yang is symbolized by fire and wind. Yin (the receptive, feminine, dark, passive force) and yang (the creative, masculine, bright, active force) are descriptions of complementary opposites rather than absolutes. Any yin/yang dichotomy can be viewed from another perspective. All forces in nature can be seen as having yin and yang states, and the two are in movement rather than held in absolute stasis. Metal (Classification Elements) “Metal, or gold, is one of the five elements of Chinese alchemy. The archetypal metals are silver and gold. Metal is associated with the west and autumn, the planet Venus and the colour white. It is believed to govern the lungs. It is associated with organization and stability. Other qualities associated with metal are unyieldingness, persistence, strength and determination. The metal person is forceful and set in their ways as metal is very strong, but they are self-reliant and enjoy the good things in life. The element metal plays an important role in Chinese astrology and feng shui, the Chinese form of geomancy.”