keris and spirit

A. G. Maisey · 15th July 2007, 11:23 PM

In the National Musium in Jakarta is a lingga taken from Candi Sukuh. A big lingga, nearly two meters long, and five feet around.

On this lingga is an image of a keris and alongside it an inscription, which says in part:-

"--- the sign of masculinity is the essence of the world---"

In the Nawanatya (14th century) we find:-

"---the criss, a token of manfulness, has its place at the front---"

In old Jawa the keris was given as an award to a man for displaying bravery in battle.

The keris is a yin object?

Interesting thought.

May I most humbly suggest that it could be useful to refrain from mixing Chinese philosophy with Javanese and European philosophy.

All three schools require extended periods of study in order to gain an adequate understanding of the concepts involved; it is already difficult enough for most of us to try to understand Javanese philosophies, working from a European base. Let us not make things even more difficult by introducing Chinese philosophies.

David · 16th July 2007, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

May I most humbly suggest that it could be useful to refrain from mixing Chinese philosophy with Javanese and European philosophy.

All three schools require extended periods of study in order to gain an adequate understanding of the concepts involved; it is already difficult enough for most of us to try to understand Javanese philosophies, working from a European base. Let us not make things even more difficult by introducing Chinese philosophies.

I think i must agree. Recouncilling these different schools of can be quite impossible. All one needs to do is look at the differences in the Chinese and European concepts of the 5 elements to see that aspects of these systems are not very compatable.

PenangsangII · 16th July 2007, 04:08 AM

Dear all,

I think we cannot discount the possibility of Chinese influence with regards to the natural balace of Yin & Yang. We are aware that the Chinese have sailed around the world long before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

Pusaka · 16th July 2007, 11:28 AM

In my mind a meteorite is yang, I can’t see how it could be considered yin. If you think of the analogy of fertilization then the Earth would represent the ovum/egg whilst the meteorite with its fiery tale would represent the sperm. A meteorite is yang (hot, dry, hard, masculine) whilst the Earth is Yin (watery, earthy, feminine) I think I have heard Indonesians refer to mother Earth and Father sky.

Spirit however might be considered Yin, so we have a Yin spirit in a Yang material, opposites attract?

PenangsangII · 16th July 2007, 03:07 PM

Dear forumites,

Although the definition of Yin & Yang between the Chinese & Javanese may slightly differ because of other cultural difference in perception, in principle they are the same (what ever the Javanese referred them). Yes Pusaka, I agree with you.

ganjawulung · 16th July 2007, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear all,

I think we cannot discount the possibility of Chinese influence with regards to the natural balace of Yin & Yang. We are aware that the Chinese have sailed around the world long before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

This is just another illustration on the Chinese influence on Indonesian culture. The first king of Islamic kingdom of Demak, Raden Patah (1478-1518), is the son of the last King Brawijaya (Majapahit) and Princess of Champa -- China. The Chinese name of Raden Patah is Jin Bun.

One of the 13 kings/queens and 2 rulers of Majapahit, is a real Chinese. He was Nyoo Lay Wa (1478-1486), after Majapahit was attacked and conquered by Jin Bun of Demak. The king of Majapahit at that time was Kertabhumi, the father of Jin Bun... That's only a few influence of Chinese to Javanese in the past. (See, "The Fall of Javanese-Hindu Kingdom and the Rise of Islamic States in Nusantara" by Prof Dr Slamet Muljana, 1968)

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2007, 11:16 PM

There can be no doubt that Chinese culture has influenced the cultures of maritime South East Asia, including much of present day Indonesia and including Jawa. However, there have been other major cultural influences on Javanese culture also, apart from that core part of Javanese culture which is indigenous.

If one is traditional Chinese, and has an excellent understanding of Chinese philosophy, it may be possible for one to transpose the yin-yang of Chinese philosophy onto Javanese culture in an attempt to come to some understanding of Javanese philosophy. However, this would be a Chinese understanding of Javanese philosophy.

If one is of European origin, and has an excellent understanding of one or more of the schools of European philosophy, it may be possible to transpose some of those European concepts onto Javanese culture, in an attempt to understand the philosophies guiding that Javanese culture, but again, this would be a European understanding of Javanese philosophy.

The element of Javanese indigenous philosophy which seems to come closest to the Chinese idea of yin-yang is the well known Javanese principle of dualism, however, this principle does not appear to be an assimilation of Chinese philosophy and its adaptation to the Javanese cultural framework, rather it appears to be an idea woven into the original fabric of Javanese thought. If we transpose concepts foriegn to Javanese culture onto that culture in our attempts to understand elements and ideas that form a part of the culture, then what we are doing is perhaps of assistance to us as individuals to allow us to come to terms with a Javanese idea within a framework that we can understand.

In the present example, if we are Chinese and we liken Javanese dualism to the Chinese concept of yin-yang, then as Chinese we have reconstructed a complex Javanese idea in a form that allows us a limited understanding of that Javanese principle. However, the key word here is "limited". If we are to have an understanding of the Javanese principle, as it is understood in a traditional Javanese context, then we need to make the effort to understand Javanese culture and society, and the philosophic principles which are the weft of the fabric of that culture, and of that society. Only by doing this can we come to a position where we may see and try to understand elements within a culture which are of that culture.

kai · 16th July 2007, 11:36 PM

Hello pak Ganja,

Please excuse a small correction:

Quote:

This is just another illustration on the Chinese influence on Indonesian culture. The first king of Islamic kingdom of Demak, Raden Patah (1478-1518), is the son of the last King Brawijaya (Majapahit) and Princess of Champa -- China.

The kingdom(s) of Champa had little to do with China and were never under rule of any ethnic Han AFAIK: as wet rice growers, their territory focused on the narrow plains along the central mountain range of today's Vietnam. They rose to regional power and wealth by their ports being a major stepping stone for the maritime trade and converted to Hindu culture like contemporary kingdoms in continental Southeast Asia (cp. Angkor Wat) as well as throughout the SEA archipelago (e.g. Majapahit). Thus, it's not surprising that they kept close ties with Khmer, Javanese, Sumatran, Malayan royal families...

Regards,
Kai

Pusaka · 17th July 2007, 01:07 AM

Because a culture recognizes the existence of duality dose not mean it is Chinese yin/yang influence. Every culture on Earth have known and understood the existence of duality since ancient times. The western equivilint of Yin and yang is Sol and Luna (literally Sun and moon). Likewise the five elements have been understood by all ancient civilizations, it dose not mean they also got it from the Chinese.

Chinese five elements: water,wood,fire,metal,earth

Western five elements: earth,fire,water,air,quintessence

The concept of the five elements is also understood by the Indonesians if I remember correctly (Bumi,air,angina,api,besi.

Indian culture also have this knowledge. Thing is when we hear the concept of duality or the five elements mentioned people think it must be Chinese philosophy, completely incorrect.

A. G. Maisey · 17th July 2007, 01:45 AM

Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written.

If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?

Kiai Carita · 17th July 2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello pak Ganja,

Please excuse a small correction:

The kingdom(s) of Champa had little to do with China and were never under rule of any ethnic Han AFAIK: as wet rice growers, their territory focused on the narrow plains along the central mountain range of today's Vietnam. They rose to regional power and wealth by their ports being a major stepping stone for the maritime trade and converted to Hindu culture like contemporary kingdoms in continental Southeast Asia (cp. Angkor Wat) as well as throughout the SEA archipelago (e.g. Majapahit). Thus, it's not surprising that they kept close ties with Khmer, Javanese, Sumatran, Malayan royal families...

Regards,
Kai

Interesting point about Putri Cempa. Cheng ho's armada visited Majapahit and Tuban though... there was a lot of Chinese influence during the times when China ruled the waves. Also it appears that to the Jawanese all lighter skined Asian foreigners were thought of as Campa / China. For a long time we thought that the Mongols of Kubilai Khan with their Korean horses (now still in Jawa called Jaran Kore), the Campans, and the several tribes of China were one and the same people. Maybe a little like in rural Jawa to this day every white person is Londo, Dutch.

Salams all,
Bram

16th July 2007, 11:28 AM	#4
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	In my mind a meteorite is yang, I can’t see how it could be considered yin. If you think of the analogy of fertilization then the Earth would represent the ovum/egg whilst the meteorite with its fiery tale would represent the sperm. A meteorite is yang (hot, dry, hard, masculine) whilst the Earth is Yin (watery, earthy, feminine) I think I have heard Indonesians refer to mother Earth and Father sky. Spirit however might be considered Yin, so we have a Yin spirit in a Yang material, opposites attract? Last edited by Pusaka; 16th July 2007 at 12:18 PM.

15th July 2007, 11:23 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	In the National Musium in Jakarta is a lingga taken from Candi Sukuh. A big lingga, nearly two meters long, and five feet around. On this lingga is an image of a keris and alongside it an inscription, which says in part:- "--- the sign of masculinity is the essence of the world---" In the Nawanatya (14th century) we find:- "---the criss, a token of manfulness, has its place at the front---" In old Jawa the keris was given as an award to a man for displaying bravery in battle. The keris is a yin object? Interesting thought. May I most humbly suggest that it could be useful to refrain from mixing Chinese philosophy with Javanese and European philosophy. All three schools require extended periods of study in order to gain an adequate understanding of the concepts involved; it is already difficult enough for most of us to try to understand Javanese philosophies, working from a European base. Let us not make things even more difficult by introducing Chinese philosophies.

16th July 2007, 04:08 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Dear all, I think we cannot discount the possibility of Chinese influence with regards to the natural balace of Yin & Yang. We are aware that the Chinese have sailed around the world long before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

16th July 2007, 03:07 PM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Dear forumites, Although the definition of Yin & Yang between the Chinese & Javanese may slightly differ because of other cultural difference in perception, in principle they are the same (what ever the Javanese referred them). Yes Pusaka, I agree with you.

16th July 2007, 11:16 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	There can be no doubt that Chinese culture has influenced the cultures of maritime South East Asia, including much of present day Indonesia and including Jawa. However, there have been other major cultural influences on Javanese culture also, apart from that core part of Javanese culture which is indigenous. If one is traditional Chinese, and has an excellent understanding of Chinese philosophy, it may be possible for one to transpose the yin-yang of Chinese philosophy onto Javanese culture in an attempt to come to some understanding of Javanese philosophy. However, this would be a Chinese understanding of Javanese philosophy. If one is of European origin, and has an excellent understanding of one or more of the schools of European philosophy, it may be possible to transpose some of those European concepts onto Javanese culture, in an attempt to understand the philosophies guiding that Javanese culture, but again, this would be a European understanding of Javanese philosophy. The element of Javanese indigenous philosophy which seems to come closest to the Chinese idea of yin-yang is the well known Javanese principle of dualism, however, this principle does not appear to be an assimilation of Chinese philosophy and its adaptation to the Javanese cultural framework, rather it appears to be an idea woven into the original fabric of Javanese thought. If we transpose concepts foriegn to Javanese culture onto that culture in our attempts to understand elements and ideas that form a part of the culture, then what we are doing is perhaps of assistance to us as individuals to allow us to come to terms with a Javanese idea within a framework that we can understand. In the present example, if we are Chinese and we liken Javanese dualism to the Chinese concept of yin-yang, then as Chinese we have reconstructed a complex Javanese idea in a form that allows us a limited understanding of that Javanese principle. However, the key word here is "limited". If we are to have an understanding of the Javanese principle, as it is understood in a traditional Javanese context, then we need to make the effort to understand Javanese culture and society, and the philosophic principles which are the weft of the fabric of that culture, and of that society. Only by doing this can we come to a position where we may see and try to understand elements within a culture which are of that culture.

17th July 2007, 01:07 AM	#9
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Because a culture recognizes the existence of duality dose not mean it is Chinese yin/yang influence. Every culture on Earth have known and understood the existence of duality since ancient times. The western equivilint of Yin and yang is Sol and Luna (literally Sun and moon). Likewise the five elements have been understood by all ancient civilizations, it dose not mean they also got it from the Chinese. Chinese five elements: water,wood,fire,metal,earth Western five elements: earth,fire,water,air,quintessence The concept of the five elements is also understood by the Indonesians if I remember correctly (Bumi,air,angina,api,besi. Indian culture also have this knowledge. Thing is when we hear the concept of duality or the five elements mentioned people think it must be Chinese philosophy, completely incorrect.

17th July 2007, 01:45 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written. If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?