Zulu Short Halbard ?

katana · 15th July 2007, 10:11 PM

I have never seen this type of weapon attributed to Africa...let alone Zulu.

Does anyone know whether this is a weapon... or ceremonial or even a 'victorian fantasy piece'

Comments please?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...5850&rd=1&rd=1

Battara · 15th July 2007, 10:18 PM

It is African, although with things added - either fantasy piece or someone added to the axe for some other reason.....

Tim Simmons · 15th July 2007, 10:23 PM

I have two things that relate to this piece. Again I personally think we are looking at something that is far from "ZULU" and more towards the big lakes and a strong Arab influence. One item is in the loft so I will not be able to show any pics untill tomorrow.

kronckew · 16th July 2007, 12:42 PM

'stunning' and 'rare' are caveats to me, and i now have also added 'zulu' to my vocabulary of words that are ebay propaganda and usually untrue.

katana · 16th July 2007, 03:00 PM

I have added an enhanced picture.

Fistly I think the only thing 'zulu' about this piece IMHO is the style of the wire binding.

Secondly the chances of this being a weapon has been greatly reduced since I have enhanced the picture. The spear end appears to be tanged but is only short as it would hit the portion of the the axe head that passes through the shaft. This arrangement would make it 'weak'....far better would be that the axe and spear head were forged in 'one piece'.
It also seems that the 'axe' has not got a sharpened edge, is relatively thin and seems to be made from uniform sheet metal, rather than forged.

The circle motif, although common to Africa, the Middle East and Asia is something I have not seen on any Zulu artefact... (so far

).

The more I look at it, the more I believe this item is 'made-up' , based on an European idea of an 'old' weapon. Either concieved in Africa...to sell to tourists. Or worse ....made in Europe perhaps to deceive.

Tim Simmons · 16th July 2007, 07:38 PM

It may not be tourist stuff. Anything introduced on ebay with praise always means itis rubbish

. Sorry I have not got into the loft, its that good

.

Freddy · 16th July 2007, 08:14 PM

I don't know about this one, but it can be African.

I'm trying to get an axe into my collection which is still owned by a Dutch friend from Amsterdam. I handled this piece several times and although it looks rather 'fancy' for an African axe, it really is a good piece. (and I know, one day, it will be mine

)

It's the axe in the middle of the pic. My friend says it comes from Tansania.

Tim Simmons · 16th July 2007, 08:32 PM

Freddy has shown a fantastic example of the not very good one I have in the loft. The one I have has a spike coming out of the handle rather than the top as in the thread starter. Perhaps it is not so bad after all I will get it down tomorrow. As we know there was a great deal of Arab interest in much of Eastern Africa, long before early European explorers. Arabs being Islamic and Islamic forms are not rare in Africa.

katana · 16th July 2007, 09:53 PM

Freddy, I certainly like your friends axe and can see why you want it in your collection.

Tim, I see what you mean about influences, the axe you posted is nice, would certainly be welcome in my house

This axe also reinforces my comment about the axe head /spear head being formed in one piece.

Assuming the axe that started the thread is genuinely African, then it must be ceremonial.....which suggests to me there must be more.... if uncommon, then a 'high status' ceremonial piece. But, having said that, I would expect it to be more ornate, perhaps with symbolic designs and more materials used such as brass, ivory etc

Tim Simmons · 16th July 2007, 10:20 PM

Well now we get to splitting hairs. What is wealth? the item in question looks well made the materials may be simple or should I say not expensive to our minds. It could still be a prestige item to a nomadic or semi nomadic community. Even a sedimentary chieftaincy far from the the main man would need regalia. The standard of such things is often an indication as to how close a person may be to the one that has somehow achieved the highest status whether they really know what they are doing or not, and all the others want to be seen as followers .

katana · 17th July 2007, 12:14 AM

Hi Tim,
I totally agree with what you said...I think I have not explained myself properly. What I meant was that, this form of axe, if truely African, is rare. The exclusivity of this style (of axe) would show the high status of the owner without any 'adornment' I think IMHO that this style of axe if it were common, (which clearly it isn't), many 'status groups' would own the 'same styled axe' .So to show higher status it would be decorated or made from materials that would reflect that status.

15th July 2007, 10:11 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Zulu Short Halbard ? I have never seen this type of weapon attributed to Africa...let alone Zulu. Does anyone know whether this is a weapon... or ceremonial or even a 'victorian fantasy piece' Comments please? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...5850&rd=1&rd=1

16th July 2007, 03:00 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I have added an enhanced picture. Fistly I think the only thing 'zulu' about this piece IMHO is the style of the wire binding. Secondly the chances of this being a weapon has been greatly reduced since I have enhanced the picture. The spear end appears to be tanged but is only short as it would hit the portion of the the axe head that passes through the shaft. This arrangement would make it 'weak'....far better would be that the axe and spear head were forged in 'one piece'. It also seems that the 'axe' has not got a sharpened edge, is relatively thin and seems to be made from uniform sheet metal, rather than forged. The circle motif, although common to Africa, the Middle East and Asia is something I have not seen on any Zulu artefact... (so far ). The more I look at it, the more I believe this item is 'made-up' , based on an European idea of an 'old' weapon. Either concieved in Africa...to sell to tourists. Or worse ....made in Europe perhaps to deceive. Attached Images

15th July 2007, 10:18 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	It is African, although with things added - either fantasy piece or someone added to the axe for some other reason.....

15th July 2007, 10:23 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I have two things that relate to this piece. Again I personally think we are looking at something that is far from "ZULU" and more towards the big lakes and a strong Arab influence. One item is in the loft so I will not be able to show any pics untill tomorrow.

16th July 2007, 12:42 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	'stunning' and 'rare' are caveats to me, and i now have also added 'zulu' to my vocabulary of words that are ebay propaganda and usually untrue.

16th July 2007, 07:38 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It may not be tourist stuff. Anything introduced on ebay with praise always means itis rubbish . Sorry I have not got into the loft, its that good .

16th July 2007, 08:14 PM	#7
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	I don't know about this one, but it can be African. I'm trying to get an axe into my collection which is still owned by a Dutch friend from Amsterdam. I handled this piece several times and although it looks rather 'fancy' for an African axe, it really is a good piece. (and I know, one day, it will be mine ) It's the axe in the middle of the pic. My friend says it comes from Tansania.

16th July 2007, 08:32 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Freddy has shown a fantastic example of the not very good one I have in the loft. The one I have has a spike coming out of the handle rather than the top as in the thread starter. Perhaps it is not so bad after all I will get it down tomorrow. As we know there was a great deal of Arab interest in much of Eastern Africa, long before early European explorers. Arabs being Islamic and Islamic forms are not rare in Africa.

16th July 2007, 09:53 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Freddy, I certainly like your friends axe and can see why you want it in your collection. Tim, I see what you mean about influences, the axe you posted is nice, would certainly be welcome in my house This axe also reinforces my comment about the axe head /spear head being formed in one piece. Assuming the axe that started the thread is genuinely African, then it must be ceremonial.....which suggests to me there must be more.... if uncommon, then a 'high status' ceremonial piece. But, having said that, I would expect it to be more ornate, perhaps with symbolic designs and more materials used such as brass, ivory etc

16th July 2007, 10:20 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Well now we get to splitting hairs. What is wealth? the item in question looks well made the materials may be simple or should I say not expensive to our minds. It could still be a prestige item to a nomadic or semi nomadic community. Even a sedimentary chieftaincy far from the the main man would need regalia. The standard of such things is often an indication as to how close a person may be to the one that has somehow achieved the highest status whether they really know what they are doing or not, and all the others want to be seen as followers .

17th July 2007, 12:14 AM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim, I totally agree with what you said...I think I have not explained myself properly. What I meant was that, this form of axe, if truely African, is rare. The exclusivity of this style (of axe) would show the high status of the owner without any 'adornment' I think IMHO that this style of axe if it were common, (which clearly it isn't), many 'status groups' would own the 'same styled axe' .So to show higher status it would be decorated or made from materials that would reflect that status.