P a t r e m -- The Smaller Keris

ganjawulung · 14th July 2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Ganjawulung – Appreciate the useful and instructional pictures that you’ve share with us. However, I would need a favour from you and the others to check your library of Javanese resources on the mission and purpose of patrem. What qualifies a keris to be categorize as patrem? Does it apply to the length of the blade of a specific range i.e. 20 – 30 cm only as in “sekilan”? Are there any other factors to be considered? Are they specifically being used only as a talisman and weapon? What are their other uses? Are there any specific targeted age group? I personally feel the referencing facts given are crucial and must be accurate. I hope you could shed some factual light to our frequently asked questions.

P.S – Some questions posed above were left unanswered in other forum. It could be there’s no patrem expert around to provide factual referencing.

Hi Hana,
I am still checking to my library on patrem. But I'm quite sure, if it is related to categorization -- based on the length of the keris -- then the measurement range is not in centimeter. Almost all Indoensian traditional culture's art, is measured with natural measurement. Also, no meter measurement for candi-candi...

At least there are three kinds of kerises, based on the measurement. Please see this keris website http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/keris07.html (1) Pasikutan. It is called pasikutan -- because related to "sikut" (human elbow) -- if the length of he keris, measured from the ganja until the point of the keris is as long as the length from the tip of human finger until the elbow. (2) Patrem. It is called patrem if the length of the keris, measured from the ganja until the point of the keris, is as long as the length of one span of adult human footstep. (3) Cundrik. It is called cundrik if the length of the keris, measured from the ganja until the point of the keris is as long as the length from the tip of human finger until the wrist.

Pasikutan, has also another meaning. It is related to "the visual impression" of keris -- whether it is "angker" (eerie, fearsome), or "berwibawa" (having an authoritative bearing) etc -- or "wagu" (clumsy, awkward).

Cundrik, can also be interpreted as the name of a dhapur, straight keris with the size as normal keris. Please, correct me if I'm wrong...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 15th July 2007, 04:49 AM

Hi Hana,
This is only an additional illustration, related to the Javanese measurement. I will take analogy of measuring candi or temple, for illustrating the measurement of kerises.

According to the late Mr Parmono Atmadi (formerly the Dean of Technical Faculty of Gadjah Mada University in Yogyakarta), the basic units measurement used in building temples in Java is the "tala".

One Javanese tala, according to this architectural research, is the length of a normal face measured from the top of the forehead to the tip of the chin, which is the same as the distance from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the middle finger when the hand is stretched to its maximum length. The Javanese tala was used in measuring ornaments, statues, and alcoves of buildings as well as the temples themselves...(Some Architectural Design Principles of Temples in Java, Gadjah Mada University Press 1988 -- page 182)

If we take the tala as the basic unit of measurement for this study, clearly it would be difficult to standardize it in term of metric measurements, since it would be different for each person. Even if we take the average measurement for Javanese today, we cannot be certain that this is the same as the average measurement for the Javanese at that time. So, the design principle (in building candis, or maybe making kerises) simply stresses the ratio between building components (keris components), since the guide is not dependent on any unit of measurement... (Parmono Atmadi)

Ganjawulung

HanaChu69 · 16th July 2007, 04:38 PM

Dear Ganjawulung,

Thank you so much for all the info and May Allah bless you for all your effort. I’m sorry for this late reply as I’m very tied up. However, I will look up on patrem from my resources over the coming weekend (If there’s any and if I could find anything relevant). I sure hope we will be able to share and compare our findings.

Warm regards,
Hana

PenangsangII · 17th July 2007, 06:19 AM

Hana & friends,

Since most Javanese & Malay cultures were very much influenced by Hinduism, would it be possible that patrem was once used by women not only as a self defence weapon but also as a suicide implement that was connected to "satee" esp when the husbands died during battle. Off course this ritual, I suspect had existed before the inhabitants of Malay archipelago converted to Islam.

ganjawulung · 30th July 2007, 02:38 AM

Dear All,
Gandhik naga (front section of keris base with naga or dragon relief) is only found in Javanese kerises. You may find such dhapur naga name as: Nagasasra, Naga Siluman (the invisible naga), Naga Tapa (ascetic naga), Naga Penganten (naga bride) in many kerises. Even in small keris like this picture. This keris, with relief of naga with crown and relief of a deer in the triangle of keris base, is only one span of a normal palm-hand. (Please compare with a normal keris in the picture).

I hope it is not wasting your time, just to see this post...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2007, 03:45 AM

Only Javanese keris Pak Ganja?

It seems I learn something new everyday.

David · 30th July 2007, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Gandhik naga (front section of keris base with naga or dragon relief) is only found in Javanese kerises.

I have certainly seen Bali keris naga.

Alam Shah · 30th July 2007, 04:33 AM

Hmmm... Naga pieces are also found in Northern Peninsular (see pic) and Riau-Lingga Archipelago, (an example in Asian Civilizations Museum, Singapore). There are quite a number in Sumatra as well.

Although I believe it originated from Java and found its way to other regions.

@quotes from Dave Henkel's site
There are a surprising variety of Peninsular forms although there is little information about the dapur or shape of the blade. Take a look at this interesting naga blade. (Pattani, Southern Thailand... anonymous collector.)

15th July 2007, 04:49 AM	#2
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Javanese Tala Hi Hana, This is only an additional illustration, related to the Javanese measurement. I will take analogy of measuring candi or temple, for illustrating the measurement of kerises. According to the late Mr Parmono Atmadi (formerly the Dean of Technical Faculty of Gadjah Mada University in Yogyakarta), the basic units measurement used in building temples in Java is the "tala". One Javanese tala, according to this architectural research, is the length of a normal face measured from the top of the forehead to the tip of the chin, which is the same as the distance from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the middle finger when the hand is stretched to its maximum length. The Javanese tala was used in measuring ornaments, statues, and alcoves of buildings as well as the temples themselves...(Some Architectural Design Principles of Temples in Java, Gadjah Mada University Press 1988 -- page 182) If we take the tala as the basic unit of measurement for this study, clearly it would be difficult to standardize it in term of metric measurements, since it would be different for each person. Even if we take the average measurement for Javanese today, we cannot be certain that this is the same as the average measurement for the Javanese at that time. So, the design principle (in building candis, or maybe making kerises) simply stresses the ratio between building components (keris components), since the guide is not dependent on any unit of measurement... (Parmono Atmadi) Ganjawulung

30th July 2007, 02:38 AM	#5
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Patrem Naga Dear All, Gandhik naga (front section of keris base with naga or dragon relief) is only found in Javanese kerises. You may find such dhapur naga name as: Nagasasra, Naga Siluman (the invisible naga), Naga Tapa (ascetic naga), Naga Penganten (naga bride) in many kerises. Even in small keris like this picture. This keris, with relief of naga with crown and relief of a deer in the triangle of keris base, is only one span of a normal palm-hand. (Please compare with a normal keris in the picture). I hope it is not wasting your time, just to see this post... Ganjawulung Attached Images

30th July 2007, 04:33 AM	#8
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hmmm... Naga pieces are also found in Northern Peninsular (see pic) and Riau-Lingga Archipelago, (an example in Asian Civilizations Museum, Singapore). There are quite a number in Sumatra as well. Although I believe it originated from Java and found its way to other regions. @quotes from Dave Henkel's site There are a surprising variety of Peninsular forms although there is little information about the dapur or shape of the blade. Take a look at this interesting naga blade. (Pattani, Southern Thailand... anonymous collector.) Attached Images

16th July 2007, 04:38 PM	#3
HanaChu69 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 29	Dear Ganjawulung, Thank you so much for all the info and May Allah bless you for all your effort. I’m sorry for this late reply as I’m very tied up. However, I will look up on patrem from my resources over the coming weekend (If there’s any and if I could find anything relevant). I sure hope we will be able to share and compare our findings. Warm regards, Hana

17th July 2007, 06:19 AM	#4
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Hana & friends, Since most Javanese & Malay cultures were very much influenced by Hinduism, would it be possible that patrem was once used by women not only as a self defence weapon but also as a suicide implement that was connected to "satee" esp when the husbands died during battle. Off course this ritual, I suspect had existed before the inhabitants of Malay archipelago converted to Islam.

30th July 2007, 03:45 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Only Javanese keris Pak Ganja? It seems I learn something new everyday.