Cambodian Dhas

ariel · 13th July 2007, 05:08 PM

Jason,
Wish you were right.....
No, there is no chance this blade was made my Masamune, Muramasa or even the most undistiguished Japanese smith

This is a product of a very primitive village foundry, far, far away from Bizen...
No sense disassemmbling it.
The tsuba is , as you say, reminescent of a Japanese general geschtalt, but is definitely NOT Japanese either: its core is soft metal ( copper? I seem to see some reddish hue) and is clad on both sides with another metal that even peeled off the base. The decorative motives are pretty basic and technically simple over the weekend I shall gently clean them and see what transpires.
Hope to find an inscription " This belongs to Mr. Pol Pot. Pretty please do not touch. Or else...."

Jason Anstey · 13th July 2007, 05:24 PM

Hahahaha

Yes I probably should have worded my thoughts a little better. - Its not going to be the lost heirloom piece missing from the Imperial Castle. However I have never seen any other guard/ tsuba thingy that has a hole exactly in position for a small knife other than Japanese. THe basic shape is Japanese-ish maybe a WW2 tourist GI piece from the islands that found its way to Cambodia?

Copper and soft metals are very common on genuine tsuba as are rough and basic designs. I dunno but the tsuba is the bit that had me intrigued?

Cheers

JAson

Mark · 13th July 2007, 05:34 PM

I think that it is more likely that the tsuba is an immitation. You see a strong Japanese influence on dha the further east you go in this area.

Maybe Rich Stein will have a comment on whether soft metal was ever used by the Japanese.

PUFF · 22nd July 2007, 06:10 PM

Very nice, indeed.

The first one, japanese influenced weapon with primitively made does not surprise me. There were active japanese soldier in Ayuthaya during 16c then they moved to Malaya peninsular and, later, to what so called today "cambodia". Steel composition and homnogenity might give some clue about its age.

I do not have any idea about the second knife. From pics, it looks like integral handle. Anyway, I could be wrong. Again, steel composition might give a hint.

The third one was a pole weapon. There are similar pieces in weaponary room at the Thai 's nation museum. This kind of weapon could be either considered as Khmer or Khmer-influenced Siam weapon. If it has thick spine, it 's not for only parade and you can put 100-200 yo (at least) on it.

ariel · 22nd July 2007, 09:01 PM

Boys,
I gave a very mild cleaning to the Dha and I may owe deep apologies to its Master. I think it is not a primitive village work but a lot of age! The quality appears to be much higher than I thought.
First, similar to the Japanese swords, it has "domed" spine. Second, it has no warping at all! You know that virtually all long "Oriental" blades are warped to a degree. This is seen on almost all Persian, Tturkish, Indian and, certainly, all SE Asian blades I have seen. Only Japanese smiths managed to control it using vises. Well, this one is straight as an arrow! The areas of pitting, I think, are not due to imperfect manufacture but to aging. If I saw a Caucasian/Turkish blade in such a shape, I would have guessed its age well beyond the 200-300 years mark. With SEA blades, I need help.The base of the blade is 1 cm thick: it was meant for business.
The tsuba has an inner core of reddish patinated metal with a bit of verdigris and is clad with copper ( now, when it is cleaner, I can see the color).

Any new assessments?

Andrew · 31st July 2007, 09:19 PM

Ariel, thank you for the new photos--I'm inclined to agree with you. That sword does look like it has significant age, and your observations about the blade are interesting. I'd still lean towards SEA manufacture on the blade, which can easily be determined if you have the nerve to attempt removal of the handle. The shape and appearance of the tang will be revealing. Likewise, a polished "window" on the blade would be interesting.

The tsuba looks, to my untrained eye, to be a genuine Japanese item. I would speculate this is a locally made blade fit with an imported guard. Perhaps Rich, or someone with more Nihonto experience, could comment on the tsuba?

Andrew · 31st July 2007, 09:44 PM

Ariel generously sent me the odd blade with the flamboyant prong (thanks!

). I've spent a good bit of time handling and examining it. This is, in my opinion, a Thai weapon.

This thing has significant age. The patina is thick, black and stable. I am convinced this is the blade from a pole-weapon later mounted as a sword. The blade itself has what appears to be a spike tang typical for weapons of the region, along with a steel collar. I wouldn't be suprised if a guard were present at some point in its history. The wooden handle is newer than the blade and collar, and has been hand-fit with an old brass shell casing as a pommel.

The spine is thick at the forte (1/2"), and demonstrates a gradual, even distal taper to the tip. The blade is simple, sturdy and shows signs of differential hardening along the edge within the patina. It is, also, quite blade heavy, with the POB approximately 10" before the handle. The edge is remarkably sharp, with an "apple-seed" geometry. Striking in that there is clear evidence of extensive use and wear, but no real recent signs of sharpening.

Overall, I think this is a serious weapon, albeit with very little ornamentation or decoration. Perfect for lopping off limbs, or fighting from atop an elephant.

I hope to remount it with an appropriate pole.

22nd July 2007, 09:01 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Boys, I gave a very mild cleaning to the Dha and I may owe deep apologies to its Master. I think it is not a primitive village work but a lot of age! The quality appears to be much higher than I thought. First, similar to the Japanese swords, it has "domed" spine. Second, it has no warping at all! You know that virtually all long "Oriental" blades are warped to a degree. This is seen on almost all Persian, Tturkish, Indian and, certainly, all SE Asian blades I have seen. Only Japanese smiths managed to control it using vises. Well, this one is straight as an arrow! The areas of pitting, I think, are not due to imperfect manufacture but to aging. If I saw a Caucasian/Turkish blade in such a shape, I would have guessed its age well beyond the 200-300 years mark. With SEA blades, I need help.The base of the blade is 1 cm thick: it was meant for business. The tsuba has an inner core of reddish patinated metal with a bit of verdigris and is clad with copper ( now, when it is cleaner, I can see the color). Any new assessments? Attached Images

13th July 2007, 05:08 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jason, Wish you were right..... No, there is no chance this blade was made my Masamune, Muramasa or even the most undistiguished Japanese smith This is a product of a very primitive village foundry, far, far away from Bizen... No sense disassemmbling it. The tsuba is , as you say, reminescent of a Japanese general geschtalt, but is definitely NOT Japanese either: its core is soft metal ( copper? I seem to see some reddish hue) and is clad on both sides with another metal that even peeled off the base. The decorative motives are pretty basic and technically simple over the weekend I shall gently clean them and see what transpires. Hope to find an inscription " This belongs to Mr. Pol Pot. Pretty please do not touch. Or else...."

13th July 2007, 05:24 PM	#2
Jason Anstey Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 102	Hahahaha Yes I probably should have worded my thoughts a little better. - Its not going to be the lost heirloom piece missing from the Imperial Castle. However I have never seen any other guard/ tsuba thingy that has a hole exactly in position for a small knife other than Japanese. THe basic shape is Japanese-ish maybe a WW2 tourist GI piece from the islands that found its way to Cambodia? Copper and soft metals are very common on genuine tsuba as are rough and basic designs. I dunno but the tsuba is the bit that had me intrigued? Cheers JAson

13th July 2007, 05:34 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I think that it is more likely that the tsuba is an immitation. You see a strong Japanese influence on dha the further east you go in this area. Maybe Rich Stein will have a comment on whether soft metal was ever used by the Japanese.

22nd July 2007, 06:10 PM	#4
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Very nice, indeed. The first one, japanese influenced weapon with primitively made does not surprise me. There were active japanese soldier in Ayuthaya during 16c then they moved to Malaya peninsular and, later, to what so called today "cambodia". Steel composition and homnogenity might give some clue about its age. I do not have any idea about the second knife. From pics, it looks like integral handle. Anyway, I could be wrong. Again, steel composition might give a hint. The third one was a pole weapon. There are similar pieces in weaponary room at the Thai 's nation museum. This kind of weapon could be either considered as Khmer or Khmer-influenced Siam weapon. If it has thick spine, it 's not for only parade and you can put 100-200 yo (at least) on it.

31st July 2007, 09:19 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Ariel, thank you for the new photos--I'm inclined to agree with you. That sword does look like it has significant age, and your observations about the blade are interesting. I'd still lean towards SEA manufacture on the blade, which can easily be determined if you have the nerve to attempt removal of the handle. The shape and appearance of the tang will be revealing. Likewise, a polished "window" on the blade would be interesting. The tsuba looks, to my untrained eye, to be a genuine Japanese item. I would speculate this is a locally made blade fit with an imported guard. Perhaps Rich, or someone with more Nihonto experience, could comment on the tsuba?

31st July 2007, 09:44 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Ariel generously sent me the odd blade with the flamboyant prong (thanks! ). I've spent a good bit of time handling and examining it. This is, in my opinion, a Thai weapon. This thing has significant age. The patina is thick, black and stable. I am convinced this is the blade from a pole-weapon later mounted as a sword. The blade itself has what appears to be a spike tang typical for weapons of the region, along with a steel collar. I wouldn't be suprised if a guard were present at some point in its history. The wooden handle is newer than the blade and collar, and has been hand-fit with an old brass shell casing as a pommel. The spine is thick at the forte (1/2"), and demonstrates a gradual, even distal taper to the tip. The blade is simple, sturdy and shows signs of differential hardening along the edge within the patina. It is, also, quite blade heavy, with the POB approximately 10" before the handle. The edge is remarkably sharp, with an "apple-seed" geometry. Striking in that there is clear evidence of extensive use and wear, but no real recent signs of sharpening. Overall, I think this is a serious weapon, albeit with very little ornamentation or decoration. Perfect for lopping off limbs, or fighting from atop an elephant. I hope to remount it with an appropriate pole.