is this a common dagger?

Conogre · 7th March 2005, 01:16 AM

I enhanced the photo as much as I could and my suspicion is that the hilt was indeed cast whole and onto the blade....brass and bronze, by the way have substantially lower melting points than iron or steel and were commonly cast onto steel blades, particularly in Africa.As to the crudity of the figures, human shapes are almost always highly stylized on African pieces except for those made in the past 20-30 years, after heavy exposure to western art.
VERY similar faces, for example are seen on the "ribs" or "spokes" that connect the blade to the haft in Songye and Nsapo axes.
As to the blade, you're forgetting one other possibility as to why it wouldn't be much more rusted if it was older than late 19th century, that being that it could have still been in use if it was a highly revered piece.....many tribes to this day are still highly animistic in their religions, having withstood Christian and Muslim influence for centuries, even closer to the original root beliefs than bastardized slave religions like Voodoo.
Often ceremonial pieces are of an heirloom nature, handed down from father to son or mother to daughter, while many prestige or status pieces were buried with the owner.
Mike
ps...for those of you that know me, don't go into shock.....I'd also be careful about more cleaning and highly suggest that you don't use sandpaper on it any more.
My own personal feeling is that you may well do unintentional damage that will both make it harder to ascertain more facts as well as decrease the value.

tom hyle · 7th March 2005, 12:24 PM

I see the gunstock resemblance, now that you mention it, and I'm quite unconvinced that's a mouth' it looks like a sword fell on it or something to me. Is it on both sides? I don't see any eyes or other facial features; only the edge loops. Those loops along the edges of the handle display some variability, and so seem handmade. The handle would be lost-wax cast directly to the tang, which is fairly common in Sudanic and sub-Sudanic Africa. The small rounds on the snakes may be made by a punch, which would not be a neccessarily modern tool, but were more likely cast in place; old African castings are not usually reworked after casting except for repairs of flaws or damage and usually some polishing.

Conogre · 7th March 2005, 03:36 PM

Tom, if you look VERY closely at the opposite corner from the "mouth" you'll see a tiny round eye and likewise, if you look very closely right next to the "mouth" you'll also see a tiny round "nostril" hole where it appears to be rounded over slightly.
I'd be willing to bet that this is repeated on both sides, is it not Fernando?
To animistic tribes almost all animals are sacred, with exceptional species even moreso........if this is from Benin, then in all likelyhood it's a stylized giraffe.
Mike

Tim Simmons · 7th March 2005, 05:58 PM

[IMG]http://[/IMG] I risk being a naughty boy posting this pic.Here we see two snakes and two people, this piece is at least 18th century and from Burkina Faso,I think it helps to see it.When does recent begin? 1895, 1900, 1905, 1910, 1915 and on.African work suffers from this tag more than others.The thing is that it is a nice rare piece and obviosly not new.Tim

fernando · 7th March 2005, 07:43 PM

while i digest all these lectures, with intense consultations to the diccionary ( my english is very limited ), here is a set of pictures on the hilt fixation, that i had already prepared.
i know the use of sand paper is a crime... i beg some tolerance, as it was heavily soaked sand paper "360", a very soft one.

fearn · 7th March 2005, 08:16 PM

Thanks Fernando!

I'd say the handle is pretty definitely cast (via lost wax) directly onto the blade--you can see that in the imperfections in the way the brass meets the steel. I'd also say that the figures were cast directly with the handle, not brazed (welded, but with brass) on later.

The one thing that's bothering me is the total lack of corrosion on the brass. There are a couple of ways to get this: either it's been in a temperature controlled setting, it was cleaned (possibly with acid--I've done this by accident and boy does it take off patina and corrosion

), or it's a relatively new piece. Or all of the above.

Considering the relative lack of bubbles, sprues, and other signs of casting, whoever did the cast did a pretty decent job, I think.

Hi Tom,

One thing to clear up is that I was thinking that whoever made it stamped the designs onto the wax master, rather than onto the finished metal.

Fearn

fernando · 7th March 2005, 10:22 PM

right, Conogre.
a giraffe ! the question i've put in the first place, but i think i didn't get myself understood . yes, a pair of eyes and nostrils,the head back, the mouth shape ! a giraffe. right. even a neck can be assumed, and its designs, as well as the eyes, nostrils and snake spots might have been post punctionned.
the patina evidence prevails ... most of the glowing parts are due to my phrenetic cleaning sense ( must be a trauma ), aggravated by my forgetting i am a forced left hander ( i've lost the right one ), and things don't come so brilliant.
any more macros, just tell. i can not miss this learning so much in a glimpse.

7th March 2005, 05:58 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	[IMG]http://[/IMG] I risk being a naughty boy posting this pic.Here we see two snakes and two people, this piece is at least 18th century and from Burkina Faso,I think it helps to see it.When does recent begin? 1895, 1900, 1905, 1910, 1915 and on.African work suffers from this tag more than others.The thing is that it is a nice rare piece and obviosly not new.Tim Attached Images

7th March 2005, 07:43 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	while i digest all these lectures, with intense consultations to the diccionary ( my english is very limited ), here is a set of pictures on the hilt fixation, that i had already prepared. i know the use of sand paper is a crime... i beg some tolerance, as it was heavily soaked sand paper "360", a very soft one. Attached Images

7th March 2005, 01:16 AM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I enhanced the photo as much as I could and my suspicion is that the hilt was indeed cast whole and onto the blade....brass and bronze, by the way have substantially lower melting points than iron or steel and were commonly cast onto steel blades, particularly in Africa.As to the crudity of the figures, human shapes are almost always highly stylized on African pieces except for those made in the past 20-30 years, after heavy exposure to western art. VERY similar faces, for example are seen on the "ribs" or "spokes" that connect the blade to the haft in Songye and Nsapo axes. As to the blade, you're forgetting one other possibility as to why it wouldn't be much more rusted if it was older than late 19th century, that being that it could have still been in use if it was a highly revered piece.....many tribes to this day are still highly animistic in their religions, having withstood Christian and Muslim influence for centuries, even closer to the original root beliefs than bastardized slave religions like Voodoo. Often ceremonial pieces are of an heirloom nature, handed down from father to son or mother to daughter, while many prestige or status pieces were buried with the owner. Mike ps...for those of you that know me, don't go into shock.....I'd also be careful about more cleaning and highly suggest that you don't use sandpaper on it any more. My own personal feeling is that you may well do unintentional damage that will both make it harder to ascertain more facts as well as decrease the value.

7th March 2005, 12:24 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I see the gunstock resemblance, now that you mention it, and I'm quite unconvinced that's a mouth' it looks like a sword fell on it or something to me. Is it on both sides? I don't see any eyes or other facial features; only the edge loops. Those loops along the edges of the handle display some variability, and so seem handmade. The handle would be lost-wax cast directly to the tang, which is fairly common in Sudanic and sub-Sudanic Africa. The small rounds on the snakes may be made by a punch, which would not be a neccessarily modern tool, but were more likely cast in place; old African castings are not usually reworked after casting except for repairs of flaws or damage and usually some polishing.

7th March 2005, 03:36 PM	#3
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Tom, if you look VERY closely at the opposite corner from the "mouth" you'll see a tiny round eye and likewise, if you look very closely right next to the "mouth" you'll also see a tiny round "nostril" hole where it appears to be rounded over slightly. I'd be willing to bet that this is repeated on both sides, is it not Fernando? To animistic tribes almost all animals are sacred, with exceptional species even moreso........if this is from Benin, then in all likelyhood it's a stylized giraffe. Mike

7th March 2005, 08:16 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Thanks Fernando! I'd say the handle is pretty definitely cast (via lost wax) directly onto the blade--you can see that in the imperfections in the way the brass meets the steel. I'd also say that the figures were cast directly with the handle, not brazed (welded, but with brass) on later. The one thing that's bothering me is the total lack of corrosion on the brass. There are a couple of ways to get this: either it's been in a temperature controlled setting, it was cleaned (possibly with acid--I've done this by accident and boy does it take off patina and corrosion ), or it's a relatively new piece. Or all of the above. Considering the relative lack of bubbles, sprues, and other signs of casting, whoever did the cast did a pretty decent job, I think. Hi Tom, One thing to clear up is that I was thinking that whoever made it stamped the designs onto the wax master, rather than onto the finished metal. Fearn

7th March 2005, 10:22 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	right, Conogre. a giraffe ! the question i've put in the first place, but i think i didn't get myself understood . yes, a pair of eyes and nostrils,the head back, the mouth shape ! a giraffe. right. even a neck can be assumed, and its designs, as well as the eyes, nostrils and snake spots might have been post punctionned. the patina evidence prevails ... most of the glowing parts are due to my phrenetic cleaning sense ( must be a trauma ), aggravated by my forgetting i am a forced left hander ( i've lost the right one ), and things don't come so brilliant. any more macros, just tell. i can not miss this learning so much in a glimpse.