P a t r e m -- The Smaller Keris

HanaChu69 · 11th July 2007, 05:54 PM

Hi Ganjawulung

Do you mind giving the overall dimension of the “medium size” keris? I guess this thread has been neglected as there maybe only a handful of patrem collectors. I’m trying to collate references on patrem and asking around for more referencing link.

Looking forward to share my findings and would appreciate input from the others as well.

Sincerely,
Hana

kai · 11th July 2007, 10:17 PM

Hello Hana,

I do think that there are quite a few folks interested in patrem, including me.

However, with my digicam still broken, I'm a bit out of the loop...

Here's an older thread on a weird piece of mine:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=14181
Any additional insights welcome!

Regards,
Kai

PenangsangII · 12th July 2007, 02:45 AM

Hi kerislovers,

I wonder whether modern small Trengganu / Kelantan made wedding keris is qualified to be termed as patrem too?

ganjawulung · 12th July 2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Hi Ganjawulung

Do you mind giving the overall dimension of the “medium size” keris? I guess this thread has been neglected as there maybe only a handful of patrem collectors. I’m trying to collate references on patrem and asking around for more referencing link.

Looking forward to share my findings and would appreciate input from the others as well.

Sincerely,
Hana

Yes, Hana Chu,
I will measure it, with pleasure. But please, give me some more time to do it. Thank you, for your kind attention. Actually, it is not easy to get patrems, good old patrems -- even in Java.

Ganjawulung

David · 12th July 2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Yes, Hana Chu,
I will measure it, with pleasure. But please, give me some more time to do it. Thank you, for your kind attention. Actually, it is not easy to get patrems, good old patrems -- even in Java.

Ganjawulung

Yes, old patrems do seem to be a rarity. Perhaps that is part of why i am drawn to them...but also, i think, it is because the keris is in general culturally considered a male possession, so i am intrigued by the ones that were created specifically for women. Certainly it would seem logical that because there are far less of these women's keris around that they weren't considered an essential item for them in the way they are for men. So does anybody know who these women were who owned keris. It doesn't seem that there were meant for just any woman. Was it reserved for a certain societial class of women or would, for instance, the farmers wife have one? Very little seems to have been written about just how these blades fit into Indonesian culture.

ganjawulung · 14th July 2007, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

So does anybody know who these women were who owned keris. It doesn't seem that there were meant for just any woman. Was it reserved for a certain societial class of women or would, for instance, the farmers wife have one? Very little seems to have been written about just how these blades fit into Indonesian culture.

Dear David,
It seems very rare, women in Java seen in public with keris. Except in "wayang orang" (traditional theater of wayang) in Central and East Java. Or in royal dance in palaces. But fortunately, I found a picture in one documentation which shows a woman wearing a wedung. The text shows that a woman-bupati (a royal or governor officer in charge of a regency) is wearing a wedung in the complete royal uniform.

Wedung itself, called as "pasikon" in royal term. In the text, it is meant for a high rank officer -- from the rank of regent to upper rank. Pasikon is also meant for Pangeran putra sentana (younger nobleman).

Ganjawulung

HanaChu69 · 14th July 2007, 01:46 PM

Greetings avid patrem collectors,

Ganjawulung – Appreciate the useful and instructional pictures that you’ve share with us. However, I would need a favour from you and the others to check your library of Javanese resources on the mission and purpose of patrem. What qualifies a keris to be categorize as patrem? Does it apply to the length of the blade of a specific range i.e. 20 – 30 cm only as in “sekilan”? Are there any other factors to be considered? Are they specifically being used only as a talisman and weapon? What are their other uses? Are there any specific targeted age group? I personally feel the referencing facts given are crucial and must be accurate. I hope you could shed some factual light to our frequently asked questions.

Kai – Thanks for the link. At least I’m aware that there are quite a few folks out there interested in patrem.

Penangsang – I’m not too sure about Malay patrem and that if we can apply the same context. I know for sure that nowadays it’s difficult to scout for one in Malaysia.

Kind regards,
Hana

P.S – Some questions posed above were left unanswered in other forum. It could be there’s no patrem expert around to provide factual referencing.

ganjawulung · 14th July 2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Ganjawulung – Appreciate the useful and instructional pictures that you’ve share with us. However, I would need a favour from you and the others to check your library of Javanese resources on the mission and purpose of patrem. What qualifies a keris to be categorize as patrem? Does it apply to the length of the blade of a specific range i.e. 20 – 30 cm only as in “sekilan”? Are there any other factors to be considered? Are they specifically being used only as a talisman and weapon? What are their other uses? Are there any specific targeted age group? I personally feel the referencing facts given are crucial and must be accurate. I hope you could shed some factual light to our frequently asked questions.

P.S – Some questions posed above were left unanswered in other forum. It could be there’s no patrem expert around to provide factual referencing.

Hi Hana,
I am still checking to my library on patrem. But I'm quite sure, if it is related to categorization -- based on the length of the keris -- then the measurement range is not in centimeter. Almost all Indoensian traditional culture's art, is measured with natural measurement. Also, no meter measurement for candi-candi...

At least there are three kinds of kerises, based on the measurement. Please see this keris website http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/keris07.html (1) Pasikutan. It is called pasikutan -- because related to "sikut" (human elbow) -- if the length of he keris, measured from the ganja until the point of the keris is as long as the length from the tip of human finger until the elbow. (2) Patrem. It is called patrem if the length of the keris, measured from the ganja until the point of the keris, is as long as the length of one span of adult human footstep. (3) Cundrik. It is called cundrik if the length of the keris, measured from the ganja until the point of the keris is as long as the length from the tip of human finger until the wrist.

Pasikutan, has also another meaning. It is related to "the visual impression" of keris -- whether it is "angker" (eerie, fearsome), or "berwibawa" (having an authoritative bearing) etc -- or "wagu" (clumsy, awkward).

Cundrik, can also be interpreted as the name of a dhapur, straight keris with the size as normal keris. Please, correct me if I'm wrong...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 15th July 2007, 04:49 AM

Hi Hana,
This is only an additional illustration, related to the Javanese measurement. I will take analogy of measuring candi or temple, for illustrating the measurement of kerises.

According to the late Mr Parmono Atmadi (formerly the Dean of Technical Faculty of Gadjah Mada University in Yogyakarta), the basic units measurement used in building temples in Java is the "tala".

One Javanese tala, according to this architectural research, is the length of a normal face measured from the top of the forehead to the tip of the chin, which is the same as the distance from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the middle finger when the hand is stretched to its maximum length. The Javanese tala was used in measuring ornaments, statues, and alcoves of buildings as well as the temples themselves...(Some Architectural Design Principles of Temples in Java, Gadjah Mada University Press 1988 -- page 182)

If we take the tala as the basic unit of measurement for this study, clearly it would be difficult to standardize it in term of metric measurements, since it would be different for each person. Even if we take the average measurement for Javanese today, we cannot be certain that this is the same as the average measurement for the Javanese at that time. So, the design principle (in building candis, or maybe making kerises) simply stresses the ratio between building components (keris components), since the guide is not dependent on any unit of measurement... (Parmono Atmadi)

Ganjawulung

14th July 2007, 01:46 PM	#7
HanaChu69 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 29	Cool!! Greetings avid patrem collectors, Ganjawulung – Appreciate the useful and instructional pictures that you’ve share with us. However, I would need a favour from you and the others to check your library of Javanese resources on the mission and purpose of patrem. What qualifies a keris to be categorize as patrem? Does it apply to the length of the blade of a specific range i.e. 20 – 30 cm only as in “sekilan”? Are there any other factors to be considered? Are they specifically being used only as a talisman and weapon? What are their other uses? Are there any specific targeted age group? I personally feel the referencing facts given are crucial and must be accurate. I hope you could shed some factual light to our frequently asked questions. Kai – Thanks for the link. At least I’m aware that there are quite a few folks out there interested in patrem. Penangsang – I’m not too sure about Malay patrem and that if we can apply the same context. I know for sure that nowadays it’s difficult to scout for one in Malaysia. Kind regards, Hana P.S – Some questions posed above were left unanswered in other forum. It could be there’s no patrem expert around to provide factual referencing.

15th July 2007, 04:49 AM	#9
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Javanese Tala Hi Hana, This is only an additional illustration, related to the Javanese measurement. I will take analogy of measuring candi or temple, for illustrating the measurement of kerises. According to the late Mr Parmono Atmadi (formerly the Dean of Technical Faculty of Gadjah Mada University in Yogyakarta), the basic units measurement used in building temples in Java is the "tala". One Javanese tala, according to this architectural research, is the length of a normal face measured from the top of the forehead to the tip of the chin, which is the same as the distance from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the middle finger when the hand is stretched to its maximum length. The Javanese tala was used in measuring ornaments, statues, and alcoves of buildings as well as the temples themselves...(Some Architectural Design Principles of Temples in Java, Gadjah Mada University Press 1988 -- page 182) If we take the tala as the basic unit of measurement for this study, clearly it would be difficult to standardize it in term of metric measurements, since it would be different for each person. Even if we take the average measurement for Javanese today, we cannot be certain that this is the same as the average measurement for the Javanese at that time. So, the design principle (in building candis, or maybe making kerises) simply stresses the ratio between building components (keris components), since the guide is not dependent on any unit of measurement... (Parmono Atmadi) Ganjawulung

11th July 2007, 05:54 PM	#1
HanaChu69 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 29	Hi Ganjawulung Do you mind giving the overall dimension of the “medium size” keris? I guess this thread has been neglected as there maybe only a handful of patrem collectors. I’m trying to collate references on patrem and asking around for more referencing link. Looking forward to share my findings and would appreciate input from the others as well. Sincerely, Hana

11th July 2007, 10:17 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Hana, I do think that there are quite a few folks interested in patrem, including me. However, with my digicam still broken, I'm a bit out of the loop... Here's an older thread on a weird piece of mine: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=14181 Any additional insights welcome! Regards, Kai

12th July 2007, 02:45 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Hi kerislovers, I wonder whether modern small Trengganu / Kelantan made wedding keris is qualified to be termed as patrem too?