Serbian Kraishnik or Beduin Shashka?

ariel · 8th July 2007, 06:24 PM

Marc,
You seem to have killed the Balkan hypothesis. Kraishnik, R.I.P.

Do you think it still can be attributed to the early-mid 19th century? Do the swords you saw also have a non-sharpened edge for ~ 1/2 to 2/3 of their length?
What or who is P.V.?

ariel · 8th July 2007, 06:52 PM

I am throwing a curveball re. connections between Spanish-American and North African weapons.
Here is a typical North African Nimcha with the blade marked "Nueva Granada 1846"
Nueva Granada was a name for a Spanish colony in what is now Venezuela/Colombia. Seems the blade traveled quite a lot to end in Spanish Sahara or nearby.

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2007, 07:01 PM

Latter 19th century most likely, since the markings discussed appear on Spanish colonial associated weapons of that period, do you agree Marc?

While close examination would most probably not support the idea, looking at these markings and the linear motif style remind me in some degree of the cuneiform type characters seen in Burton's references to the Assyrian sappara ("Book of the Sword" , 1884, p.207). It is interesting to note that the ancient Assyrian bronze sword Burton is referring to was purchased from a Bedouin at Nardin by a British officer. Though the actual motif on the line drawing of the sword is dissimilar to that on the swords we are discussing, the shapes seen in many cuneiform inscriptions are worth noting. Perhaps atavistic symbolism might have some consideration despite lack of geographic parity? Another curious note is that the inscibed characters on the bronze sword are also in motif on the back of the blade.

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2007, 07:22 PM

Nicely placed curveball Ariel!!!

which illustrates well what I was saying about the Spanish-Arab connection. It is very interesting to see a South American marked blade on a nimcha though. The blade appears to be one of the German trade blades of heavy cutlass type shipped from Solingen in quantity during the 19th century. While the intended destination seems to have been to South America, perhaps it was detoured and never reached it. It is of course possible that the blade was mounted at one time and via the trade ships returned to the Maghreb and was remounted locally.

Marc · 9th July 2007, 09:05 AM

glad to have been of any help.

If you ask me, one of the most valuable resources of these fora is the fact of having so many people "in the field", with their own pool of "local" knowledge, so frequently unavailable to the international community just because no-one ever bothered to put it in a format accessible to us all.

Now, the questions...
Yes, 19th c, definitely, starting at some point in the first third and spanning to its end, when the colones were lost (1898). And, although I said these are normally attributed to the Philippines, truth is that I feel more comfortable with the label of just "colonial". I haven't seen any proof these were exclusively form the Philippines, this and the fact that there are some typologies of regulation machetes that are traditionally attributed to the Caribbean colonies, make me think that the exclusive attribution for these pieces could have been more a "consensual" thing (like a "these are colonial, the Caribbean ones are different, so these have to be for the Philippines" thing. Such is the way many typologies are born in the collectors world, I'm afraid...) than something really sustantiated. I have to check this more deeply, I know where to look at...

On the other hand, I would say that the "arab" influence in Spanish weaponry ended up much earlier than the time that we're dealing with here. I don't think we can look for such parallelism in this particular case... but the curveball can in fact be more curved than one might think. The Toledo Factory and the Spanish blade industry in general provided a lot of edged materila to the North-, Center- and South- American countries. Surplus and retired material, from Spain itself and from these countries ended up as trade goods about everywhere, with Africa being a specially good market, with Spanish presence in the actual Morocco being quite strong until mid-late 20th c.

ariel · 9th July 2007, 01:33 PM

So, you think that the Nimcha blade was actually made in Spain for Nueva Granada and not in Nueva Granada?

Marc · 11th July 2007, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

So, you think that the Nimcha blade was actually made in Spain for Nueva Granada and not in Nueva Granada?

In fact no, not really (I'm sorry, I had to post the last message in a hurry, and wasn't able to refine it as much as I would have liked). It would have surely been the case if an additional Spanish mark (normally one from the Toledo Factory) was to be found somewhere in the blade. Such mark could have been removed when adapting the blade to a new hilt... or not have been there at all, so we don't really know. Given the actual data, the more realistic thing would be to consider the blade FROM New Granada, and ending up, at the end, as an export item or a military surplus, in the African market for a new "life"...

8th July 2007, 06:52 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am throwing a curveball re. connections between Spanish-American and North African weapons. Here is a typical North African Nimcha with the blade marked "Nueva Granada 1846" Nueva Granada was a name for a Spanish colony in what is now Venezuela/Colombia. Seems the blade traveled quite a lot to end in Spanish Sahara or nearby. Attached Images

8th July 2007, 06:24 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marc, You seem to have killed the Balkan hypothesis. Kraishnik, R.I.P. Do you think it still can be attributed to the early-mid 19th century? Do the swords you saw also have a non-sharpened edge for ~ 1/2 to 2/3 of their length? What or who is P.V.?

8th July 2007, 07:01 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Latter 19th century most likely, since the markings discussed appear on Spanish colonial associated weapons of that period, do you agree Marc? While close examination would most probably not support the idea, looking at these markings and the linear motif style remind me in some degree of the cuneiform type characters seen in Burton's references to the Assyrian sappara ("Book of the Sword" , 1884, p.207). It is interesting to note that the ancient Assyrian bronze sword Burton is referring to was purchased from a Bedouin at Nardin by a British officer. Though the actual motif on the line drawing of the sword is dissimilar to that on the swords we are discussing, the shapes seen in many cuneiform inscriptions are worth noting. Perhaps atavistic symbolism might have some consideration despite lack of geographic parity? Another curious note is that the inscibed characters on the bronze sword are also in motif on the back of the blade.

8th July 2007, 07:22 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Nicely placed curveball Ariel!!! which illustrates well what I was saying about the Spanish-Arab connection. It is very interesting to see a South American marked blade on a nimcha though. The blade appears to be one of the German trade blades of heavy cutlass type shipped from Solingen in quantity during the 19th century. While the intended destination seems to have been to South America, perhaps it was detoured and never reached it. It is of course possible that the blade was mounted at one time and via the trade ships returned to the Maghreb and was remounted locally.

9th July 2007, 09:05 AM	#5
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	glad to have been of any help. If you ask me, one of the most valuable resources of these fora is the fact of having so many people "in the field", with their own pool of "local" knowledge, so frequently unavailable to the international community just because no-one ever bothered to put it in a format accessible to us all. Now, the questions... Yes, 19th c, definitely, starting at some point in the first third and spanning to its end, when the colones were lost (1898). And, although I said these are normally attributed to the Philippines, truth is that I feel more comfortable with the label of just "colonial". I haven't seen any proof these were exclusively form the Philippines, this and the fact that there are some typologies of regulation machetes that are traditionally attributed to the Caribbean colonies, make me think that the exclusive attribution for these pieces could have been more a "consensual" thing (like a "these are colonial, the Caribbean ones are different, so these have to be for the Philippines" thing. Such is the way many typologies are born in the collectors world, I'm afraid...) than something really sustantiated. I have to check this more deeply, I know where to look at... On the other hand, I would say that the "arab" influence in Spanish weaponry ended up much earlier than the time that we're dealing with here. I don't think we can look for such parallelism in this particular case... but the curveball can in fact be more curved than one might think. The Toledo Factory and the Spanish blade industry in general provided a lot of edged materila to the North-, Center- and South- American countries. Surplus and retired material, from Spain itself and from these countries ended up as trade goods about everywhere, with Africa being a specially good market, with Spanish presence in the actual Morocco being quite strong until mid-late 20th c.

9th July 2007, 01:33 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	So, you think that the Nimcha blade was actually made in Spain for Nueva Granada and not in Nueva Granada?