Turkish / Indian ?? Kilij Sword

drdavid · 7th July 2007, 04:08 AM

Googling Prawskay and Prawshay does not reveal any such surname? could you read this name differently. Wikipaedia references Guy Francis Laking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Francis_Laking
as the most likely Sir Laking
Drd

ariel · 7th July 2007, 04:36 AM

A hilarious comment from the Google site:
Recent Controversy
In 2004, Norwegian biographer Tor Bomann-Larsen put forward the hypothesis that King Olav V of Norway was not the biological son of King Haakon VII, but his mother, Queen Maud, had been, in 1902 in London, artificially inseminated by Sir Francis Laking with his own or his son Guy's semen. This hypothesis, based on shaky evidence and photographic resemblance met with general disbelief and official denial
....
The Norwegian link is intriguing: perhaps, Turks invaded Norway ( to which Ham refers) for a good purpose

Oriental-Arms · 7th July 2007, 06:46 PM

Two Comments:

Date: We all use to think that this type of weapons appeared in the 18 C. But isn't it possible that we were mistaken?? We have here quite a good example of a blade dated earlier than we think. Ham is correct that swords were used to carry early dates for commemoration of a certain event, be it a famous battle or important conquest, but in all such cases that I have seen, it was referred to the event. Here there is no such reference only a quote of a very common saying in the world of the Islam. Why not simply accept that may be these blades are earlier than we thought??

Provenance: The sword was acquired in the UK but I agree the label was not written by a British. We can only confirm the provenance by tracing the original Christies auction catalog.

Tim Simmons · 7th July 2007, 07:58 PM

It is a very beautiful sword.

ariel · 7th July 2007, 08:28 PM

No doubt, the sword is beautiful!
What is the motive on the handle ? Parasols? Mughal motive.
Another puzzle: the invocation of Ali and Dhulfaghar is Shia; the Ottomans were Sunnis, AFAIK. I guess the inscription might be contemporary to the handle.

Emanuel · 7th July 2007, 09:13 PM

I thought that invocations to Ali and Ali's sword were used by both Shi'a and Sunna. Don't Ottoman yataghans often have such invocations?

ham · 7th July 2007, 10:45 PM

Manolo,

It is correct that this phrase glorifying 'Ali and Dhul-fakar was used among both Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims.

Oriental-Arms,

Your observation,

"that swords were used to carry early dates for commemoration of a certain event, be it a famous battle or important conquest, but in all such cases that I have seen, it was referred to the event."

intrigues me-- if I understand you correctly, you have seen Islamic blades which bear inscriptions that reference a specific historical occurrence? I regret that in all my years I have not, excepting weapons made after a European model, since this tends to be a Western practice. If there are any examples you could cite it would be most helpful.

Ham

7th July 2007, 04:08 AM	#1
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Googling Prawskay and Prawshay does not reveal any such surname? could you read this name differently. Wikipaedia references Guy Francis Laking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Francis_Laking as the most likely Sir Laking Drd

7th July 2007, 04:36 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A hilarious comment from the Google site: Recent Controversy In 2004, Norwegian biographer Tor Bomann-Larsen put forward the hypothesis that King Olav V of Norway was not the biological son of King Haakon VII, but his mother, Queen Maud, had been, in 1902 in London, artificially inseminated by Sir Francis Laking with his own or his son Guy's semen. This hypothesis, based on shaky evidence and photographic resemblance met with general disbelief and official denial .... The Norwegian link is intriguing: perhaps, Turks invaded Norway ( to which Ham refers) for a good purpose

7th July 2007, 06:46 PM	#3
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Two Comments: Date: We all use to think that this type of weapons appeared in the 18 C. But isn't it possible that we were mistaken?? We have here quite a good example of a blade dated earlier than we think. Ham is correct that swords were used to carry early dates for commemoration of a certain event, be it a famous battle or important conquest, but in all such cases that I have seen, it was referred to the event. Here there is no such reference only a quote of a very common saying in the world of the Islam. Why not simply accept that may be these blades are earlier than we thought?? Provenance: The sword was acquired in the UK but I agree the label was not written by a British. We can only confirm the provenance by tracing the original Christies auction catalog.

7th July 2007, 07:58 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	It is a very beautiful sword.

7th July 2007, 08:28 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No doubt, the sword is beautiful! What is the motive on the handle ? Parasols? Mughal motive. Another puzzle: the invocation of Ali and Dhulfaghar is Shia; the Ottomans were Sunnis, AFAIK. I guess the inscription might be contemporary to the handle.

7th July 2007, 09:13 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I thought that invocations to Ali and Ali's sword were used by both Shi'a and Sunna. Don't Ottoman yataghans often have such invocations?

7th July 2007, 10:45 PM	#7
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Manolo, It is correct that this phrase glorifying 'Ali and Dhul-fakar was used among both Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims. Oriental-Arms, Your observation, "that swords were used to carry early dates for commemoration of a certain event, be it a famous battle or important conquest, but in all such cases that I have seen, it was referred to the event." intrigues me-- if I understand you correctly, you have seen Islamic blades which bear inscriptions that reference a specific historical occurrence? I regret that in all my years I have not, excepting weapons made after a European model, since this tends to be a Western practice. If there are any examples you could cite it would be most helpful. Ham