A foundation for examining the quality of a keris blade

David · 5th July 2007, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

It is still sound discriminative to me, and regarding that westerner is more perfect than the easterner, or even Javanese.... Soryy for this impression.
Ganjawulung

Ganja, i am sorry that you get this impression from Alan's words, but i hardly think that was his intention. Rather than implying that the Westerner's view is more "prefect" it implies to me just the opposite, the tendency of the Westerner to be drawn to a keris merely for it's visual appearence rather than having a better understanding of it's spiritual nature or the cultural context that a particular keris may have within it's own particular Indonesian society. In other words, we Westerners have a tendency to like something for it's surface appearence, because it is "just another pretty face" without getting to know the deeper truth behind the "face". Now this isn't true of all Westerners either, it is merely a generalization. I don't, for instance, believe it is true for myself. I own many keris that certainly wouldn't win any "beauty contests" in the Western mind set, but they definitely have a kind of character to them that make them very valuable to me. But as a general rule of thumb i would agree that most Westerner collectors look for a keris that will "wow!" them visual first without taking into account concepts of social prestige and spiritual power.

A. G. Maisey · 5th July 2007, 04:23 AM

Rather than get involved in a discussion where no matter what I say, I will be damned for discrimination against somebody, I'll tell you a story.

In days past when we still had gunshows in Sydney, I used to take a table at those shows and try to sell keris, eastern edged weapons, and all sorts of other little bits and pieces. The keris were the centrepiece, and I'd put up a good mix of old and new, low price, high price, rare and common.

I'd present them so that the blade as well as the dress could be seen.

I would always include one or two very good, very expensive old Javanese keris.

Prices were never shown, anybody wishing to buy any keris needed to engage me in conversation.

During more than twenty years of going along to these shows with my bag of keris I never sold one good, old, Javanese keris. Not one.

In fact, during all that time not a single potential buyer was sufficiently attracted to the good, old Javanese keris that I had on offer to even pick one up and enquire the price.

I sold a lot of current era Madura keris with brilliant pattern welded pamor blades.

I sold a lot of keris that had very high visual impact.

I sold a lot of keris that really packed an artistic punch.

I did not sell, or even get one enquiry about the very good quality, old Javanese keris that were on the table.

Western collectors in general, have an entirely different set of standards and requirements to the standards and requirements of Javanese collectors. I am in the very fortunate position where I understand both sets of standards. I can understand the Javanese point of view --- yes Pak Ganja, both Solo and Jogjakarta, as well as East Jawa and Jakarta --- and I also understand the point of view of the bulk of western collectors. I do not regard one set of standards as inferior or superior. Each set of standards is a reflection of the society in which each group of collectors lives. Similarly, I do not regard one society or culture as inferior or superior:- I regard both as equals, and both as flawed in some aspects.

David · 5th July 2007, 01:57 PM

Thanks Alan for clarifying your position even further. I am sure that nothing more needs to be said in this regard and would like to see the discussion back on track, so if anyone needs Alan to clarify his postion even further i suggest that it be done in PMs, not on the open boards.

kai · 5th July 2007, 08:44 PM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

During more than twenty years of going along to these shows with my bag of keris I never sold one good, old, Javanese keris. Not one.

What would have been the lower end range of keris you consider good & old?

Quote:

In fact, during all that time not a single potential buyer was sufficiently attracted to the good, old Javanese keris that I had on offer to even pick one up and enquire the price.

I have to admit that this surprised me. It's a safe guess that many beginning collectors are tempted by the more gaudy pieces but not a single collector experienced with old keris in 20 years? Amazing...

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 6th July 2007, 02:41 AM

My attendances at these shows stopped about 6 or 7 years ago, so I cannot recall in detail exactly what I might have offered at any particular show, however, in broad terms, low end would have been something like a Tuban wengkon in Jogja timoho with mamas, high end would have been Kinom , probably in new Solo wrongko with silver. Both blades would have been in a good state of preservation.

Its not so much a matter of:-

"---beginning collectors are tempted by the more gaudy pieces but not a single collector experienced with old keris in 20 years? ---"

Yes, certainly it is possible to offer quite spectacular keris when working with current era material, and when I do offer this type of thing I have invariably offered the very best that I have been able to obtain, within each specific value range, so there would have been a number of keris on display with very high visual and artistic impact. I believe that most collectors based in the western world will invariably be attracted to a keris with a very high level of craftsmanship, combined with good artistic interpretation.

Right alongside these "Playboy Centrefolds" we have two or three old blades with a slightly subdued finish, smaller, thinner, the workmanship when measured by universal craft standards, almost invariably inferior. A Javanese gentleman with considerable experience in keris would recognise what they were. A western collector , even one with 30 or 40 years of experience in keris, all or most of it obtained in the western world, would only see some rather unremarkable old blades. If that western collector had bothered to ask prices, he would probably have died of a heart attack when he learnt that the thin, old , unremarkable blade with wos wutah pamor in worn dress had a ticket that was multiples of the brave, spectacular blade with brilliantly executed pamor ron duru, complete with Solo ladrang, silver pendok, and gem studded selut.

The western based collector has in general, built his collection on quality craftsmanship, art, and value for money.

The collector in Jawa has in general, built his collection on cultural values which apply within Jawa, but are for the most part not recognised outside Jawa.

One set of standards is not superior to the other, within the societal context where they exist.

David, I recognise your advice as an attempt to prevent a fire before it occurs. I assure you, for my part, I will be adding no fuel to any little flames that may happen to arise. However, in order to answer Kai's question in a manner that would not mislead, I have found it necessary to expand as I have done above.

David · 6th July 2007, 03:03 PM

That's OK Alan. I don't see your reply as "fuel for the fire". In fact i believe the point you are trying to make is crucial to the original question of the thread. How do we appraise the value of a keris when different standards and collecting approaches exist not only between East and West (the most obvious), but also within the Indonesian culture frame itself? Ganja talks about the differences between Surakarta and Yogyakarta, but surely standards are even wider apart between, say, Surakarta and Terangganu. Then, of course, there is always a matter of simple personal preferences. Though much of what we like is influenced by our particular cultures there will always be those certain things that appeal on an individual basis.
I personally do not tend towards the general Western mold in my keris collection. I must admit that i do like to look at the "centerfolds", but i ask myself, do i really want one for my wife?

To tell the truth i do have a couple in my collection that i got based on looks alone, but most of my collection is made up of older blades, not so much of the "high end" ones of which Alan speaks, but still, in my personal assessment, respectable blades...with "personality". I do understand the general Western desire for glamor and high levels of craftsmanship in their blades, but for me it is not the most important aspect for collection. That the keris "speaks" to me is far more important. Of course, since i rarely get to handle the keris i buy beforehand this can be a bit of a gamble. But i feel i have done remarkable well with this and i'm usual very pleased with my purchases once in hand. I think this could be due in part to the fact that i make most of my purchases from people i know who in turn have a good sense of my own personal tastes.

kai · 6th July 2007, 09:20 PM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

in broad terms, low end would have been something like a Tuban wengkon in Jogja timoho with mamas, high end would have been Kinom , probably in new Solo wrongko with silver. Both blades would have been in a good state of preservation.

So these would start in the price range of a smaller 2nd hand car (in good state of preservation

)?

BTW, what's the concept of an "old" keris (blade) in Jawa?

Quote:

A Javanese gentleman with considerable experience in keris would recognise what they were. A western collector , even one with 30 or 40 years of experience in keris, all or most of it obtained in the western world, would only see some rather unremarkable old blades.

So this boils down to wether one has a firm understanding of the tangguh system or not?

Regards,
Kai

ganjawulung · 7th July 2007, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Ganja, i am sorry that you get this impression from Alan's words, but i hardly think that was his intention. Rather than implying that the Westerner's view is more "prefect" it implies to me just the opposite, the tendency of the Westerner to be drawn to a keris merely for it's visual appearence rather than having a better understanding of it's spiritual nature or the cultural context that a particular keris may have within it's own particular Indonesian society. In other words, we Westerners have a tendency to like something for it's surface appearence, because it is "just another pretty face" without getting to know the deeper truth behind the "face".

Dear Alan and David,
Of course, I know that was not your intention. That was just my simple question, and no hard feeling for me. I am sorry for my misunderstanding...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 9th July 2007, 04:23 AM

G'day Kai,

An old blade in Jawa?

Depends who you talk to and the context of the conversation.

Can be pre Mataram, pre Mataram SA, pre PB X, pre 1980. Most usual Javanese and seriously accepted is pre Mataram, the later periods are regarded as "new" blades.My own interpretation is pre-WW II, which is probably more relevant to western collecting.

As to value, an old Tuban in old dress and mamas would not be all that pricey, no more so , really, than a decent current era blade in similar dress. But Kinom is costly enough to cause most people to proceed carefully, especially if in very good dress. Don't forget:- the value of a complete keris is the sum of its individual parts. A good Solo pendok can cost more than a pretty fair sort of blade.

Blade appraisal is based on tangguh. To be able to correctly appraise a blade, you do need a good understanding of tangguh --- as well as a lot of other things.

Kai, I'm a little uncomfortable with this talk of values. I feel that we are getting too close to the prohibition of no discussion relating to values. Possibly it may be as well to cease discussion in the open forum of value related things.

regards,

Alan.

Montino Bourbon · 2nd August 2007, 06:10 AM

Could you put up a photo of a 'centerfold'-type keris or two and a few good old keris so we can see what you mean?

A. G. Maisey · 3rd August 2007, 01:17 AM

I'm sorry Montino, but I would find that very difficult to do.

I do not , as a general rule, display keris from my private collection.

Keris that I have passed to other collectors, or intend to pass to other collectors cannot legitimately be shown in this Forum.

Possibly somebody else may be able to assist.

2nd August 2007, 06:10 AM	#10
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Dear Mr Maisey; Could you put up a photo of a 'centerfold'-type keris or two and a few good old keris so we can see what you mean?

5th July 2007, 04:23 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Rather than get involved in a discussion where no matter what I say, I will be damned for discrimination against somebody, I'll tell you a story. In days past when we still had gunshows in Sydney, I used to take a table at those shows and try to sell keris, eastern edged weapons, and all sorts of other little bits and pieces. The keris were the centrepiece, and I'd put up a good mix of old and new, low price, high price, rare and common. I'd present them so that the blade as well as the dress could be seen. I would always include one or two very good, very expensive old Javanese keris. Prices were never shown, anybody wishing to buy any keris needed to engage me in conversation. During more than twenty years of going along to these shows with my bag of keris I never sold one good, old, Javanese keris. Not one. In fact, during all that time not a single potential buyer was sufficiently attracted to the good, old Javanese keris that I had on offer to even pick one up and enquire the price. I sold a lot of current era Madura keris with brilliant pattern welded pamor blades. I sold a lot of keris that had very high visual impact. I sold a lot of keris that really packed an artistic punch. I did not sell, or even get one enquiry about the very good quality, old Javanese keris that were on the table. Western collectors in general, have an entirely different set of standards and requirements to the standards and requirements of Javanese collectors. I am in the very fortunate position where I understand both sets of standards. I can understand the Javanese point of view --- yes Pak Ganja, both Solo and Jogjakarta, as well as East Jawa and Jakarta --- and I also understand the point of view of the bulk of western collectors. I do not regard one set of standards as inferior or superior. Each set of standards is a reflection of the society in which each group of collectors lives. Similarly, I do not regard one society or culture as inferior or superior:- I regard both as equals, and both as flawed in some aspects.

5th July 2007, 01:57 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thanks Alan for clarifying your position even further. I am sure that nothing more needs to be said in this regard and would like to see the discussion back on track, so if anyone needs Alan to clarify his postion even further i suggest that it be done in PMs, not on the open boards.

6th July 2007, 02:41 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	My attendances at these shows stopped about 6 or 7 years ago, so I cannot recall in detail exactly what I might have offered at any particular show, however, in broad terms, low end would have been something like a Tuban wengkon in Jogja timoho with mamas, high end would have been Kinom , probably in new Solo wrongko with silver. Both blades would have been in a good state of preservation. Its not so much a matter of:- "---beginning collectors are tempted by the more gaudy pieces but not a single collector experienced with old keris in 20 years? ---" Yes, certainly it is possible to offer quite spectacular keris when working with current era material, and when I do offer this type of thing I have invariably offered the very best that I have been able to obtain, within each specific value range, so there would have been a number of keris on display with very high visual and artistic impact. I believe that most collectors based in the western world will invariably be attracted to a keris with a very high level of craftsmanship, combined with good artistic interpretation. Right alongside these "Playboy Centrefolds" we have two or three old blades with a slightly subdued finish, smaller, thinner, the workmanship when measured by universal craft standards, almost invariably inferior. A Javanese gentleman with considerable experience in keris would recognise what they were. A western collector , even one with 30 or 40 years of experience in keris, all or most of it obtained in the western world, would only see some rather unremarkable old blades. If that western collector had bothered to ask prices, he would probably have died of a heart attack when he learnt that the thin, old , unremarkable blade with wos wutah pamor in worn dress had a ticket that was multiples of the brave, spectacular blade with brilliantly executed pamor ron duru, complete with Solo ladrang, silver pendok, and gem studded selut. The western based collector has in general, built his collection on quality craftsmanship, art, and value for money. The collector in Jawa has in general, built his collection on cultural values which apply within Jawa, but are for the most part not recognised outside Jawa. One set of standards is not superior to the other, within the societal context where they exist. David, I recognise your advice as an attempt to prevent a fire before it occurs. I assure you, for my part, I will be adding no fuel to any little flames that may happen to arise. However, in order to answer Kai's question in a manner that would not mislead, I have found it necessary to expand as I have done above.

6th July 2007, 03:03 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	That's OK Alan. I don't see your reply as "fuel for the fire". In fact i believe the point you are trying to make is crucial to the original question of the thread. How do we appraise the value of a keris when different standards and collecting approaches exist not only between East and West (the most obvious), but also within the Indonesian culture frame itself? Ganja talks about the differences between Surakarta and Yogyakarta, but surely standards are even wider apart between, say, Surakarta and Terangganu. Then, of course, there is always a matter of simple personal preferences. Though much of what we like is influenced by our particular cultures there will always be those certain things that appeal on an individual basis. I personally do not tend towards the general Western mold in my keris collection. I must admit that i do like to look at the "centerfolds", but i ask myself, do i really want one for my wife? To tell the truth i do have a couple in my collection that i got based on looks alone, but most of my collection is made up of older blades, not so much of the "high end" ones of which Alan speaks, but still, in my personal assessment, respectable blades...with "personality". I do understand the general Western desire for glamor and high levels of craftsmanship in their blades, but for me it is not the most important aspect for collection. That the keris "speaks" to me is far more important. Of course, since i rarely get to handle the keris i buy beforehand this can be a bit of a gamble. But i feel i have done remarkable well with this and i'm usual very pleased with my purchases once in hand. I think this could be due in part to the fact that i make most of my purchases from people i know who in turn have a good sense of my own personal tastes.

9th July 2007, 04:23 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	G'day Kai, An old blade in Jawa? Depends who you talk to and the context of the conversation. Can be pre Mataram, pre Mataram SA, pre PB X, pre 1980. Most usual Javanese and seriously accepted is pre Mataram, the later periods are regarded as "new" blades.My own interpretation is pre-WW II, which is probably more relevant to western collecting. As to value, an old Tuban in old dress and mamas would not be all that pricey, no more so , really, than a decent current era blade in similar dress. But Kinom is costly enough to cause most people to proceed carefully, especially if in very good dress. Don't forget:- the value of a complete keris is the sum of its individual parts. A good Solo pendok can cost more than a pretty fair sort of blade. Blade appraisal is based on tangguh. To be able to correctly appraise a blade, you do need a good understanding of tangguh --- as well as a lot of other things. Kai, I'm a little uncomfortable with this talk of values. I feel that we are getting too close to the prohibition of no discussion relating to values. Possibly it may be as well to cease discussion in the open forum of value related things. regards, Alan.

3rd August 2007, 01:17 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	I'm sorry Montino, but I would find that very difficult to do. I do not , as a general rule, display keris from my private collection. Keris that I have passed to other collectors, or intend to pass to other collectors cannot legitimately be shown in this Forum. Possibly somebody else may be able to assist.