The earliest sabers

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Oriental-Arms

At the base of the blade there is a steel collar used to hold the blade well in the scabbard.

An interesting hypothesis about the purpose of the collar is that it was used to accomodate for the grip in case an archer's finger was worn. Such rings were worn on the right hand's thumb and in a hurry, when taking the ring off was impossible, a normal grip would be quite uncomfortable, at least according to reenactors who have tried it in practice. To get a good grip in such a case, the easiest thing to put one's forefinger over the guard and in front of the so-called collar, the thumb with the ring lying on the guard. The collar serves to protect the forefinger from the edge. I do not know if this is true, but if you examine sabres with collars you will note that the collar is extended much further along the edge of the blade than on the spine, which seems to support this hypothesis.
As for the dating of sabres, there was a long thread in the forum a while ago. There are plenty of finds from the 9th century as deep into Europe as the Balkans and nowadays Hungary, which means they must have developped in Central Asia at least a century or two earlier.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for showing this rare blade. This made me remember another rare blade I have seen in Persian Steel by J. Allan and B. Gilmour, page 55. It is a slightly curved, single edged blade, 71.5 cm long, found in 9th century archaeological levels at Nishapur. Now at the MET. Here is a map – click to make it bigger http://www.metmuseum.org/TOAH/HD/nish/hd_nish.htm

At an excavation at Merv, where Ann Feuerbach participated, they excavated ingots, although they did not have any iron, it had to be imported, but Merv had at least two big plusses, it had a key position on the Silk Road, and it was an Arabian headquarters at the time. Have a look at the map showing some of the key towns on the Silk Road at the time, Herat, Nishapur, Merv, Bukhara and Samarqand.

[HorseNomad]

Greetings Members,

I am new to the Forum but have been a student of early sabres for many years.
These blades have been found over a very large geographical area. I would say from the Danube to the Kirghiz region. If the blade in the photo has some hilt elements it will be possible to say more about dating and place of origin.
The collar at the blade base was probably there to keep the blade tight in the scabbard like a habaki on a Japanese blade. They appear on Chinese sabres also. It could be for resting the index finger but the weight of these blades, usually very heavy, doesn't imply that.
If anyone wants to see other types of steppe swords let me know, I can try to put up some photos.

Tim

[ham]

Welcome to the Forum, Tim.

I, for one, would be interested in knowing more about early sabres, please do post some photos with descriptions.

Ham

[TVV]

Hello Tim,

I am glad you joined us, as I have always wanted to learn more about early sabres, because they are the weapon that has always fascinated me the most. No irony intended, I am serious. I like your suggestion that sabres should be classified according to hilt and blade characteristics, rather than the surrounding objects in the burial, because this latter approach does not take into account heirloom blades, that survived for centuries and trophies, which could have been taken from neighboring peoples.
The picture I have attached is from Varna's Archaeological Museum and the display features sabres and palashes found in nowadays North-Eastern Bulgaria. They are dated VIII-X centuries, which was South-Eastern Bulgaria back then, if the dating is correct. What would your comments on them be, with regards to dating, origin, etc.?
Thanks,
Teodor

[HorseNomad]

Hello Teodor,

OK, let's see-- well, the first on the left is about right for 8 or 9 century, but not exclusively Bulgar. Second one can't say because of the flash. 3rd one crossguard and blade both look Bulgar 10 century give or take 100 yrs, 4th one is definitely later, probably 13 century and kind of an international form from the Caspian all the way to the Balkans. The last sword is definitely Golden Horde so 13-14 century.
The thing with these ancient sabres is condition. I personally avoid the really corroded or incomplete ones. If there's enough material intact to show details like the form of the guard and the cross-x of the blade, you can pretty well date them but that's kind of rare. And if you find ones that still have the pommel, that's just plain luck.

Tim

[Lee]

Here is a link to the very first forum topic on this site, done even before forums software (we are now on the 3rd system)...

Sword From Siberia

[TVV]

Originally Posted by HorseNomad

Hello Teodor,

OK, let's see-- well, the first on the left is about right for 8 or 9 century, but not exclusively Bulgar. Second one can't say because of the flash. 3rd one crossguard and blade both look Bulgar 10 century give or take 100 yrs, 4th one is definitely later, probably 13 century and kind of an international form from the Caspian all the way to the Balkans. The last sword is definitely Golden Horde so 13-14 century.
The thing with these ancient sabres is condition. I personally avoid the really corroded or incomplete ones. If there's enough material intact to show details like the form of the guard and the cross-x of the blade, you can pretty well date them but that's kind of rare. And if you find ones that still have the pommel, that's just plain luck.

Tim

Thanks Tim,

I appreciate your comments. According to an archaeologist, who published a catalogue of finds from the VII-Xth centuries in the territory of nowadays Bulgaria, the first three are palashes and the 2nd and 3rd he claims belong to a group associated with Bulgars and Khazars. The 4th one, he claims is Magyar, as it is similar to finds associated with the Magyars. I have to admit, to me it looks similar to the well known Charlemagne sabre, which is considered Magyar. For the last sword, I completely agree that it looks like a Golden Horde one.
I will try to post pictures of more finds from nowadays Bulgaria over the weekend. I am also looking forward to seeing as many other examples in this thread, because as I wrote, these early medieval sabres are my favorites, even if I know too little about them.
Teodor

Dr. Lee's example strikes me as amazingly well preserved.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by TVV

An interesting hypothesis about the purpose of the collar is that it was used to accomodate for the grip in case an archer's finger was worn. Such rings were worn on the right hand's thumb and in a hurry, when taking the ring off was impossible, a normal grip would be quite uncomfortable, at least according to reenactors who have tried it in practice. To get a good grip in such a case, the easiest thing to put one's forefinger over the guard and in front of the so-called collar, the thumb with the ring lying on the guard. The collar serves to protect the forefinger from the edge. ...

i've found that with my 9c magyar sabre it is more comfortable with the index finger below the guard and the side of the thumb resting on the side of the guard. with the index finger ahead of the guard it's a bit easier to carry but the ring hits the guard and gives a less secure feeling to my grip.



the 16th C. hungarian sabre however, the ring hits the languets wherever you put the forefinger, the thumb resting on the side of the languet and forefinger ahead of the guard seems the most comfortable, tho i'd want to get everything below the guard before i had to parry anything...and with the 16c sabre i'd rather not have the ring on at all. maybe a hard leather thumb patch on a shooting glove would do. may have to try that some time. of course by the 16th c. i wouldn't be a horsebowman....





as thumb rings vary alot in thickness and even shape, this opinion may not apply to other types of ring, i find the ring is fairly easy to rotate with the forefinger to get the working part out of the way, tho it's more difficult with a glove on.....

my bronze thumb ring:



not having access to a horse at the moment, this experimental archeology was done on foot, (and melon targets do not fight back very well either) so results may vary

p.s. - while neither of my repro sabres has the 'collar', the edge is deliberately unsharpened for the 1st two inches from the crossguard as i DO stick my forefinger there on occasion, just not with the archers ring on.

[ham]

Nice complete example, Tim. Do you have others to share?

Ham

[HorseNomad]

Hi Ham,

I do have others, too many in fact. Been collecting early swords for a long time now. Will post pics when I get a minute, got a teenage daughter around for the summer... nuff said.
Teodor those are some interesting swords especially the Bulgar one with the pommel. I have one sword similar but it was found way east of that area, it also has a tribal mark on it. Interesting that the pommel on that Bulgar sword isn't much different in shape than the one on my sabre in the pic above. Looks like there are 2 type pommels, this one with the dome top like a can of Coke somebody left in the sun too long and another one looks like a lightbulb, like on the Magyar swords in the next pic you posted. There is a lot of variation in the guards and blade profiles after the 10 century but the pommels don't change much at all.

Tim

[Kayahan]

It all seems to have started with the canted hilt; it added valueable leverage to the straight, double-edged swords of steppe people. Inevitably, the edge to which the hilt was canted became the “primary cutting edge” in use. Then they started to shorten the “secondary cutting edge” where it had no practical use; in the beginning ¼ from the hilt was left unsharpened. When they realized that they could improve the cutting ability by giving a convex curvature to the blade, they further reduced it to ¼ from the tip and they come up with the earliest saber.

Is this a too short summary?

[Jim McDougall]

Not at all Odevan! the 'Readers Digest' version!!! Nicely said !
The development of the sabre from the historical perspective is not only complex, covering incredibly vast geography, but lengthy periods of time with varying peoples and civilizations. What you have observed would be the plausible dynamics of development, and well suggests the 'why' of its development.

I very much appreciate this thread and the great illustrations and observations on weapons not often discussed among collectors, obviously due to the scarcity of them. Thanks very much guys !!

All the best,
Jim

[ham]

Tim,

Weren't you going to post images of further sabres??

Ham