keris and spirit

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by David

.... I believe this because essentially the "true" power resides within the practioner...

David and Gonjo,

I do believe as you, the true power resides within the practioner. However, some people believe keris has power which influencing the practioner/holder. Which one is true? Perhaps, none holds "absolute" truth. It is like chicken and eggs enigma. Which one comes first.

The moderate people would say there is co-relation between them, practioner and keris. Based on the corelationship amongst them, the power has multiplied exponentially.

I do really want to have an opportunity to discuss spiritual aspects of shadow puppet, keris and local values with Ki Timbul "The Dalang". I used to listen to his performance whenever the local broadcaster (usually GCD FM) programmed it on air. Sometimes, I followed it from the begining to the end. Sometimes, just in goro-goro part.

[What do you translate Dalang and Goro-Goro in English?]

Someday, I had discussed with an ordinary dalang about something which he considered as a pusaka. He preferred to pick up not a personal example but in general. Usually, a dalang has a thing which is considered as pusaka. It can be a keris, an akik (stone), one of his gamelan instruments or one of his puppets. None knows because, usually, he keeps it secretly. Some dalangs, use it whenever they perform shadow puppet. Some dalangs, instead of using it when performing shadow, they use it when they do ritual works (meditation, "nayuh", contemplation, and so on). The dalangs have vary opinions about a time or condition which is considered as a sacred part then they consider an neccessity to hold "his pusaka".

By listening to the radio, I had a guessing that Ki Timbul had the elaboration of my questions. But in the end of 80s and the eraly of 90s, he was in his peak whilst I was just a student. It was difficult to have such opportunity. Usually, I chose to meet with people (dalang, dukun, kiai, et cetera et cetera) at a time "before" or "after" their peak seasons. To whom I considered him as "pre-peak somebody", I could listen to and learn his values on wish, hope, ambition and expected achievement. To whom I considered as "after-peak somebody", I could listen to and learn his recollection of golden career and unfinished hope, wisdom and the way he has already pathed. To whom I considered as "on air or on peak somebody", seemingly, they considered me as "a student with bugget package without any interesting offered" then leading to no substantial conversation.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

...
I do really want to have an opportunity to discuss spiritual aspects of shadow puppet, keris and local values with Ki Timbul "The Dalang". I used to listen to his performance whenever the local broadcaster (usually GCD FM) programmed it on air. Sometimes, I followed it from the begining to the end. Sometimes, just in goro-goro part.

[What do you translate Dalang and Goro-Goro in English?]

Someday, I had discussed with an ordinary dalang about something which he considered as a pusaka. He preferred to pick up not a personal example but in general. Usually, a dalang has a thing which is considered as pusaka. It can be a keris, an akik (stone), one of his gamelan instruments or one of his puppets. None knows because, usually, he keeps it secretly. Some dalangs, use it whenever they perform shadow puppet. Some dalangs, instead of using it when performing shadow, they use it when they do ritual works (meditation, "nayuh", contemplation, and so on). The dalangs have vary opinions about a time or condition which is considered as a sacred part then they consider an neccessity to hold "his pusaka"....

Ki Timbul from Bantul is indeed a very good and respected dalang -in this case, dalang is shadow pupeteer (spl?) ... I studied breifly with him in the early / mid 80s. One thing I remember he said was that if you want to be a dalang, you must aspire to be more than famous (kondang), rather you should aspire to be accepted (ketrima). His training as a boy consisted of walking around Central and East Jawa, visiting elder dalangs and talking to people, appart from sitting behind his father handing him puppets in a show. Another Yogya dalang I like and studied with is Ki Hadi Sugito, who now doesn't perform any more, but was expert in goro-goro, especially in bringing the character Bagong to life. He invented 'Bagong Ratu' - a comedy when Bagong becomes king.

Goro-Goro is a part of the wayang kulit dramatic structure where the tides begin to turn for the good side and clown-gods (panakawan) appear. It is signalled by the suluk (sung poetry) Bumi gonjang-ganjing, langit kelap-kelap katon....ooooo...lir gencanging aris, denya ilang wewadhine, wadhananira kumel kucem rahnya maratani...hoooooong. The earth shakes, there is fire in the sky, the seas rise, women loose their shame, their looks are crumpled and the peasants' faces loose their shine....hooooooong! In the goro-goro, the good hero listens to the advice of the clown-gods and finds the strength to continue the struggle victoriousely.

David, if you google Pangkur Gedhong Kuning, you will find a page that refers to a CD in the US.

Most dalangs, have several pusaka in the form of an inherited puppet, a gamelan instrument, and a keris. Sometimes when they retire or even before that) they also are dukuns - like Ki Hadi Sugito from Wates.

Warm salaams,
Bram.

[PenangsangII]

Dear Mr Rahman & Hana,

About that thread in kampungnet, don't worry, it's all in the past. No hard feeling .

Actually, me & Sepokal were continuously attacked by a few forumites before we eventually had to defend ourselves and retaliated. I cant provide the link here as the thread was dumped into the rubbish bin, but if I remember correctly, I was accused of being the follower of paganism / jahiliyyah, Hinduistic, unislamic, a complete idiot and so on. Like David said, respecting other people's personal belief by giving arguments academically and without attacking other people's personality is the key of ethics in a forum. The one thing internet communication is, it's world wide, world without border. There is no way that a forum on internet should be targeted to certain types of people only, otherwise I would have told them that they had no business being in the sub-forum "keris collecting" as they had no respect to the keris.

Enough has been said, lets continue with the topic.

[sepokal]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear Mr Rahman & Hana,

About that thread in kampungnet, don't worry, it's all in the past. No hard feeling .

Actually, me & Sepokal were continuously attacked by a few forumites before we eventually had to defend ourselves and retaliated. I cant provide the link here as the thread was dumped into the rubbish bin, but if I remember correctly, I was accused of being the follower of paganism / jahiliyyah, Hinduistic, unislamic, a complete idiot and so on. Like David said, respecting other people's personal belief by giving arguments academically and without attacking other people's personality is the key of ethics in a forum. The one thing internet communication is, it's world wide, world without border. There is no way that a forum on internet should be targeted to certain types of people only, otherwise I would have told them that they had no business being in the sub-forum "keris collecting" as they had no respect to the keris.

Enough has been said, lets continue with the topic.

Dear Penangsang, it is rather sad to know such thing exist but that is how it is. As a Muslim, dua kalimah syahadah is essential in our life. Putting things where they belong is Justice or in Malay we call it Adil (Meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya). Zalim is when you do not put things to where they belongs. Hence, as a Muslim, Awalluddin Makrifatullah, is very important. The foremost in religion, is knowing Allah swt. Everything in this world is "makhluk". Respecting it in due respect is important. Why? Because we are all His creation. Respecting must come from understanding and knowing what you are respecting...another word, knowledge. When people starts to talk about mystical thing, please remember, Awalludin Makrifatullah. Now, as a Muslim, the knowledge came to us through our dearest and most loved Prophet, Rasulullah saaw. Hence, putting him at a place where he should not be, is Zalim and that itself, requires us as a Muslim to correct those who don't know, to know and gain knowledge, be it Muslim or non Muslim. Not doing this, is considered zalim. Rasulullah must never be misplaced. Even when discussing keris and mysticism, (especially that of Malay keris), Islam can never be separated from it.

Nevertheless, I've come a long way threading this path and a few hiccups will not stop me going. Believe it or not, I've met people who claimed that Malaikat bernafsu, hence, right now, it seems that nothing can surprise me anymore....especially when that experience where Rasulullah is not up to par to gain the knowledge of kashaf!!!

There is this story though, told to me by a pandai keris (in Malaysia). Regarding a fight between two warriors, one of that of Malay (maybe Patani) and another of Javanese. Both fight their very best, and they realise that both of them, can't harm each other with their keris due to both of them are Kebal. Hence, this Malay hulubalang set a standard where he told his nemesis, that if they were to continue fighting, it should be that both of them, should fight naked. The Javanese warrior doesn't want to do that, simply because, his kebal is due to him wearing an azimat, while the kebal of the Malay hulubalang is that of amalan. I know this might be wrongly interpreted by some forumers, especially that of Javenese origin. This story is not about who is stronger than who. My point is, the best of keris (to me), is that of amalan, not of "dampingan".... Hence, for Malays, keris must never be separated from amalan and religion and foremost for Malay's Keris is knowing that it is a weapon, not an artistic expression and being a weapon, it's job is to kill when requested to. Not doing that, is considered Zalim (tidak meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya). Hence, Malay keris that is considered lucky are those that protects it's owner's life when in danger. That luck comes from a certain part of the Malay Keris which is very much attached to Islam. Many a name given to parts of the Malay keris is with knowledge of understanding the need of a weapon that does not stray away from Islam
Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" through cracks.

Nevertheless, dampingan is not wrong to me (depending on certain conditions). Simply because, when we were born, we were born not alone (for those who knows) and Allah swt does not do things without good reasons.

Allah Hafiz
sepokal toh putih.

[Rick]

I would hate to see old arguments had on another forum be reborn or even referred to here .

Gentlemen; please tread carefully lest this wonderful thread be permanently closed .

Thanks

[David]

Originally Posted by sepokal

dua kalimah syahadah, Adil (Meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya), Awalluddin Makrifatullah, "makhluk", Malaikat bernafsu, kashaf, Kebal, hulubalang, azimat, amalan, "dampingan", tidak meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya, "isyarat"

C'mon Sepokal, you should know the terms of this forum by now. I do recognize a couple of these terms and i might be able to infer the meanings of a couple of others through your usage, but this is very clearly an English forum and if we are truly all going to understand each other it is imperative that we all communicate in a common language. I have no problem with other lamguages (in fact i encourage them) as long as an accurate translation is also provided. You host is, afterall, this English speaking forum. To do anything else would show the greatest disrespect.
As for what i clearly understand in your last post i will say this...Clearly there is more than just the Islamic interpretation of keris to be considered here. It was a Hindu weapon long before the coming of Islam to the region and before that its traditions may have been even more indigenous and animistic, traditions whose current continued through keris culture to this very day. I genuinely respect anyone"s way of relating to the keris in the spiritual tradition of their choice so your imperative to "correct" those who do not do this as you or Islam sees fit worries me greatly. Likewise you assertion that discussions of the keris and mysticism cannot be seperated from Islam is troublesome for me. This has been, IMO, a long and fruitful thread which i would like to see continue, but make no mistake, if the conversation degrades into a battle of religions and dogma i will shut it down in a heartbeat.
I am sorry if i may have misunderstood the underlying intention of your post, but if i have it only serves to demonstrate the ultimate importance of complete translations to assure everyone has a full understanding of the concepts being discussed.
Likewise, as Rick has already stated, old arguments from other forums need to stay there and not be brought into this forum.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by sepokal

Hence, for Malays, keris must never be separated from amalan and religion and foremost for Malay's Keris is knowing that it is a weapon, not an artistic expression and being a weapon, it's job is to kill when requested to.

Hmmm... your opinion seems absolute. I believe, it's the hand that guides the keris to do its intended task. Not an artistic expression? I beg to differ... if you choose to venture into it's simple-looking, sub-lime looks... you'll find the artistic expression, imho.

Originally Posted by sepokal

Hence, Malay keris that is considered lucky are those that protects it's owner's life when in danger.

I agree about the lucky part, but it does apply to all keris in general, though.

Originally Posted by sepokal

That luck comes from a certain part of the Malay Keris which is very much attached to Islam. Many a name given to parts of the Malay keris is with knowledge of understanding the need of a weapon that does not stray away from Islam

A question: Why do certain Malays still regards that the Majapahit keris, have a strong supernatural element?

Majapahit is a Javanese-Hindu kingdom, it's empus are Hindus too. Many symbolism in the keris are Hindu inspired. Most likely the 'beings' within are too... (speculating).

Keris in the Malayan Peninsular have many influences from different belief system... the malay keris are likewise...

I find it rather disturbing... emphasizing that keris is Islamic.
What I do believe... names can be changed... ideals modified to follow suit...
For those whom are of different belief system, one would treat the keris within their own cultural/religious context...

Originally Posted by sepokal

Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" through cracks.

Hmmm... in my opinion, this is make belief. When a smith is unable to forge properly a blade, this might be the excuse... imo only... hmmm.
Alan, you've made keris blades, care to elaborate, please?

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for the invite Alam Shah, but I'm going to stay out of this one.

Being a man who loves peace, and having a personal life that requires me to co-exist in harmony with Muslims, Taoists, Buddhists, Russian Orthodox, and devout atheists, I have learnt that debate about anything that somebody else firmly believes is a total waste of time.

All religions are belief systems.

I will walk 20 miles to avoid any sort of debate that touches on religion.

My response to all of Sepokal's post would simply be that he is entitled to believe whatever he wishes to believe. There is no profit for any of us in arguing for a different point of view.

[sepokal]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hmmm... your opinion seems absolute. I believe, it's the hand that guides the keris to do its intended task. Not an artistic expression? I beg to differ... if you choose to venture into it's simple-looking, sub-lime looks... you're find the artistic expression, imho.

I agree about the lucky part, but it does apply to all keris in general, though.

A question: Why do certain Malays still regards that the Majapahit keris, have a strong supernatural element?

Majapahit is a Javanese-Hindu kingdom, it's empus are Hindus too. Many symbolism in the keris are Hindu inspired. Most likely the 'beings' within are too... (speculating).

Keris in the Malayan Peninsular have many influences from different belief system... the malay keris are likewise...

I find it rather disturbing... emphasizing that keris is Islamic.
What I do believe... names are changed... ideals are modified to follow suit...
For those whom are of different belief system, one would treat the keris within their own cultural/religious context...

Hmmm... im my opinion, this is make belief. When a smith is unable to forge properly a blade, this might be the excuse... imo only... hmmm.

Alan, you've made keris blades, care to elaborate, please?

Dear Alam Shah,

Again I reiterate, it is not the artistic form that come first into making a Malay keris. First and foremost, it is a weapon. Artistic impression and artistitic interpretation is based on those who views it and as they say, Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What you call artistic, is not to some. While you consider the extreme curves on a keris to be beautiful, some might not view it so.

Regarding Keris Majapahit. Have you ever seen a real keris Majapahit? Read again what Bambang says about keris Majapahit / Keris Sajen.

"Keris sajen dibuat khusus untuk keperluan sesaji tetapi ada yang menyebutnya sebagai keris Majapahit padahal keris Majapahit bentuknya indah dan mutunya tinggi, tidak sederhana seperti keris Sajen."

in English, "Keris Sajen is made especially for "sesaji" but some calls it Keris Majapahit while that is not so as keris Majapahit is much more beautiful and of higher quality as compared to keris Sesaji".

My question is, then, what really is keris Majapahit? How does it looks like?

The last Majapahit kingdom was located in what we called Kelantan right now. There is nothing disturbing about Islam and Keris. Why is such thoughts, exist I wonder? Disturbing to Islam or that to Keris?


Alam Shah, pamor that exist in most Javanese keris are based on made belief too. I guess, it will always be part and parcel of keris lovers to go through this "made belief" stories.

Regards,
sepokal

[sepokal]

Dear David,

Please don't misinterpret me. First and foremost, the idea or concept that keris came from Hinduism can be contested. Many researchers of keris have stated that although, by default, it is recognised that keris originated or is inspired from Hinduism, but they were unable to prove otherwise. Hence, they presume through Candi Sukor Relief that Keris originated from Hinduism. If one were to look at the History of Patani and you might realised that Islam have came long before 1400. In fact, there are documents that states that Islam have arrived to this region as early as the third Khalif, which is Khalifah Osman. Keris is part of Patani's culture back then. In fact, it is used by the famous Wali Songo in their mission to spread Islam to this part of Asia. There are reasons to belief the forefathers of most of the Wali Songo, in which most of them are related to, was Sheikh Jamadil Al Kubra. He was very much active, during his time, in Patani (early 1300). Hence, to state for a fact that Keris originated from Hinduism just because of a relief discovered at Candi Sukor (dated 1400 plus) is still not strong enough.

As most of the forumers are more comfortable talking about keris and Hinduism, I don't see any reason why forumers should be uncomfortable to keris and Islam. Nevertheless, I understand that most of the forumers are discussing keris based on Javanese Keris hence, it is understandable when most reference book would be discussing Javanese keris as compared to Malay Keris. It is also understandable that, history wise, it will be based on these books too.

Regarding old argument, it's bygone, long time ago. Please don't close this thread as I have no intention to bring any old argument into this forum. Don't worry, if there are any who would like to challenge or create havoc in this forum, I'm sure the relevant people knows how to handle this. On my part, my writing is sincerely a must for my friends and those who knows.

Currently, I'm not into forum anymore. It just happen that my friend Penangsang requested from this forum my views and I did my best to explain. If anyone find my writings rather offensive, my apologies and you are welcome to delete it.

If you notice, I've not written in this forum, for like...forever, not until recently. There's is just too much to write about Malay Keris and it's mysticism. Unfortunately, (or rather fortunately), I'm more towards Malay Keris and it's hidden secrets. Malay keris is very much related to Islam. Hence, due to that fact I guess, probably it is not appropriate for me to discuss it here, where most are more familiar with Javanese keris. Again, my apologies.

[Alam Shah]

Hmmm... I guess I'll take a walk in the other direction...
To each their own...

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by Kiai Carita

.... I like and studied with is Ki Hadi Sugito, who now doesn't perform any more, but was expert in goro-goro, especially in bringing the character Bagong to life. He invented 'Bagong Ratu' - a comedy when Bagong becomes king.

....

Most dalangs, have several pusaka in the form of an inherited puppet, a gamelan instrument, and a keris. Sometimes when they retire or even before that) they also are dukuns - like Ki Hadi Sugito from Wates.

Warm salaams,
Bram.

dear Bram,

Does Ki Hadisugito have not performed shadow puppet anymore?! yes, the character of Bagong in his performances inspired me so much. In one occasion, related to my formal studies, before audience, a prominent professor asked me what kind of development strategies, in my opinion, should be implemented in my country. One of my answers was a stretegy which could create a situation/an environment that people could do as Bagong did in Ki Hadisugito performance. Full of joy from the beginning till the end of goro-goro.

Back to spirit aspect, especially, of keris. What is your opinion in how to trigger for activating the inner spirit of both the practioner and his keris?

yes, as David said, the most important is "the man behind the gun". Equipped by a good rifle, a talented hunter will become "a big issue" amongst jungles' community (like in the movie).

warm salam,

OeS

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

dear Bram,

Does Ki Hadisugito have not performed shadow puppet anymore?! ....
.................................................. ..........................................
Back to spirit aspect, especially, of keris. What is your opinion in how to trigger for activating the inner spirit of both the practioner and his keris?

warm salam,

OeS

Raden, I last saw Pak Hadisugito around 9 years ago, and at that time he wasn't performing anymore due to ill health. Some of his sons were, but not as successfull as him. However, around Yogya you can still find recordings of some of his performances, including, Bagong Ratu. In fact thanks to recording technology, we can still enjoy Nartosabdho years after he passed away.

As to spirit in keris - I am not really interested in the Aladien type of spirit, nor am I interested in having a jinn for a slave (Khadam), but like all good art, the keris also has a spirit inherent in it, from the maker and from the materials. How do you activate the spirit? You must study it, in much the same way as an actor must study Hamlet before being able to deliver the famous line - "to be or not to be, that is the question" ... Everyone knows that Shakepeare is a good writer but not everyone can bring his words to life. Same with a keris, the 'spirit' or power is there, but you can't bring it to life if you don't have it in you.

In Jawanese terms I was taught that you must use 'olah rasa' to be able to feel the truth about the keris. The way to olah rasa that I was taught is called 'gerak nurani' - which is more or less similar to the 'latihan' they do in Subud. You must learn to 'ngetutake krenteg' - follow in flow the split-second decisions of your feeling and let your mind relax and not think, move and flow 'pasrah' surrender to Allah. This exercise done over and over activates a sixth sense. Once this rasa is active, you have your spirit activated, you will find it easy to touch and fill and bring fourth the spirit of a keris.

Warm salaams,
Bram

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

I do really want to have an opportunity to discuss spiritual aspects of shadow puppet, keris and local values with Ki Timbul "The Dalang". I used to listen to his performance whenever the local broadcaster (usually GCD FM) programmed it on air. Sometimes, I followed it from the begining to the end. Sometimes, just in goro-goro part.

Yes Raden,

In my eyes, Ki Timbul is a "professor" of simplicity... These are two pictures of my old simple man, with his favorite Nagasasra...

Ganjawulung

[Raden Usman Djogja]

to all keris lovers,

remarkable....
enlightening me.

Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

If I look at the way of Ki Timbul held and opened his beloved keris, I realize that he admired deeply to his belonging. "If not we, who will admire ourself ".

Guys and gals, if I am not mistaken, "curigo" is a synonym of/for keris. I do not exactly know its transalation into english. perhaps "curigo" means curiousity. On the other hand, "waos" is a synonym of/for point of spear/lance. "Waos" explicitly means tooth or teeth. One of the implicit meanings of "waos/tooth/teeth" amongst rumpun Melayu (including Javanese) is strength, isnt it?

This opinion below must need further examination since the source is not expertise nor prominent person in the world of Kerisology. Here is his opinion which I got during my journey when I was still undergrad student in Djokja.

There are some pusaka which their spirit have influence on the beholder. Meanwhile, there are some pusaka which theris spirit have influence not only on the beholder but also on the surrounding community. According to these opinions, usually, keris refers to the first classification whilst spear/lance point refers to the second one.

All keris lovers, s'il vous plait, now, the floor is yours?

warm regards,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

A few days ago Kiai Carito offered an opinion on the nature of a suitable offering to a sekti object.

Perhaps we could consider this :-

if we believe that there is some essence in a sekti object, be it a keris,or be it something else, is it not so that this essence is not separate from the universal essence?

is not this universal essence indestructible and eternal, and thus indivisible from the singularity which we conceptualise as "God"?

that which is great, is also small, the essence that we may believe is in our sekti object is not separate from, but is a part of the singularity.

in the making of an offering, it is not the material elements of the offering that are important---these are only present to calm our own imperfections and to assist our own weak and undisciplined thoughts along the path of devotion.

it is the mental attitude that is of greatest importance in any offering to any sekti object.

in the Gita the Lord said:- "Whoever offers a leaf, a flower, a fruit or even water with devotion, that will I accept, offered as it is with a loving heart".

in an offering to a sekti object, we are offering to an element of the singularity that we believe has entered into that object, thus we are offering to our individual conception of "God".

a flower, or a leaf offered with the right mental attitude is as valuable as any complex ritual.

but to learn the right mental attitude is perhaps the work of a lifetime.

or several.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A few days ago Kiai Carito offered an opinion on the nature of a suitable offering to a sekti object.

Perhaps we could consider this :-

if we believe that there is some essence in a sekti object, be it a keris,or be it something else, is it not so that this essence is not separate from the universal essence?

is not this universal essence indestructible and eternal, and thus indivisible from the singularity which we conceptualise as "God"?

that which is great, is also small, the essence that we may believe is in our sekti object is not separate from, but is a part of the singularity.

in the making of an offering, it is not the material elements of the offering that are important---these are only present to calm our own imperfections and to assist our own weak and undisciplined thoughts along the path of devotion.

it is the mental attitude that is of greatest importance in any offering to any sekti object.

in the Gita the Lord said:- "Whoever offers a leaf, a flower, a fruit or even water with devotion, that will I accept, offered as it is with a loving heart".

in an offering to a sekti object, we are offering to an element of the singularity that we believe has entered into that object, thus we are offering to our individual conception of "God".

a flower, or a leaf offered with the right mental attitude is as valuable as any complex ritual.

but to learn the right mental attitude is perhaps the work of a lifetime.

or several.

Brilliant...

[Raden Usman Djogja]

so whenever the holder reachs to the essence of singularity, the mission of keris is accomplished. Added by one imaginer curve, the curves of keris is already even. to the holder, no need a keris anymore, even no need everything as a medium in his search. to the keris, its destiny will be decided then.