Pallash for comments

[Conogre]

While European weapons are usually on a "things I've read" basis, the possibility of an executioner's pallash wouldn't seem to be all that great of a stretch, particualrly when viewed in a military context.
As I understand it, swords were proper for gentlemen, officers and nobles with axes, hangiing and such often reserved for the peasants at large?
Mike

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Adam,
Extremely impressive entry post!! Welcome to the forum. Its great to have another addition to the contingent of Eastern European Hussars here !
For many years the arms and armour of Poland, Hungary, Romania and this sector of Europe have been obscure in arms references and considered exotica that could only be admired in museums and esoteric books. It is wonderful to have members from these countries who can share information in discussions on these and especially those who actually have examples in thier collections.
This example you show in the very exciting array of sabres is most intriguing.
The hilt does reflect the general form of Polish sabres from late 17th through 18th centuries in the perpandicular dynamics of the guard, especially the extended straight quillon, and the elongated rectangular langet( similar forms are seen in Zygulski's "Stara Bron" Warsaw, 1982, p.46) The integrated pommel and backstrap also reflect hilts of Polish form in that period.
The hilt on your example is quite heavy and somewhat interpretive, suggesting the latter part of the period described. What is most interesting is of course the blade. I have honestly never seen a blade of this heavy straight form mounted in this type hilt. I am very curious about the rounded tip as well, which as discussed suggests an execution weapon, although these examples would not have required a knuckleguard and it seems they always had simple cross type hilts.
Wolviex: could you possibly say more on these pallasches with rounded blades for chopping action? The use of the estoc (koncerz) for armor piercing thrusts is clear, but the use of such chopping action is puzzling. I have heard of unusually large swords such as two handed forms used to bring down horse and rider...could this have been the purpose of this unusually large sword?

Adam: Could you show closeups of the facing moons and the shield with T and dot? As noted, these do suggest Solingen manufacture. It is well known that Solingen makers typically used established and known markings from other makers and centers. The 'T' of course suggested Toledo, and the only thing thus far I have found with T and dot is Aguirre Hortuna de Nicholas of Toledo, 16th century ("Armourers Markings" Gyngell, p.81). The facing moons are interesting because these showed up as is well known on the takoubas and many kaskaras in North Africa, and it is well known that many if not most trade blades came from Germany. In studying the takouba, it is interesting to note that the native blades often have a rounded tip. Possibly a reflection of German trade blade influence, and these type blades?

Could we see more of the blade, especially the point? What is the length of the blade in inches ( no rulers with cm. out here in Texas !!)

All the best,
Jim

[Perkun]

Hi Jim,
The stats on this supermodel are: blade 40.5 inches long, 0.39 inch thick, 1.57 inches wide.
I attach more photos. The tip of the blade is not only rounded but the roundness is sharpened as well. In the pic. with a ruler please notice the gap where the blade has been worn from usage, Wolviex is right, it has been used as a chopping weapon (sharpened tip makes sense now too).

NOT a good beheading weapon, but very good for chopping from horseback the weight of the blade alone provided for a substantial impact.
NOT a good weapon for a foot soldier to bring down a rider, can't grab it with 2 hands, too heavy to fight with lifting it over your head, too uncontrollable.

Notice the shinier, even area on the crossguard, seems the thumb ring has been cut off at some point.

Conogre: Hanging was for criminals, thought of as a shameful way to go.

[Perkun]

one more

[Perkun]

And a good shot of the "T"

[wolviex]

Jim: I don't know if I can properly explain the "chopping" theory in English. Maybe I'm using not this word properly, so let's call it BREAKING instead. General it is forced with the shape of the blade which is straight - just like with the swords. Chopping/breaking with straight blade is used (I think, if I'm wrong correct me) to break the enemy's armour, to drop off his legs, drop off the horse etc. You take a sword, and instead acrobatics slashes just hit hit hit . With pallasches like this "chopping" seems to be the easiest way of fighting. Hits like this were used also with Hungarian-Polish type sabres (those open hilted with extra long quillons), because of heavy blade, thicken at the point. But generally sabres were used for oblong cut. But cavalry sabres in 18th and 19th centuries were bigger and heavier too. It's easy to smash someone from the horse with something heavy . Sorry if I made more confusion.

Of course I was joking with "Executioner pallasch" theory. There were swords used for it, with much thicker blades than this one.

Another theory: the blade still seems to me later 18th century, but the markings which I didn't recognize yet should tell us more about it. Maybe the blade was refit with older, estoc hilt ?

[Perkun]

As to the markings;
I cracked open Lenkiewicz's "1000 Marks of European Blademakers". I have no other text on the topic so this one will have to do. From the examples shown there seems such "T" has been in use in Spain from 16th to 18th century.
Also used by German makers 16th century to 17th (don't know about later, no examples listed in the text).
Earliest combination of "T" and one halfmoon in Germany seems to belong to Stamm Clemens del Rei Esperdo dated 1580 (pg.66)
Singular but similar halfmoon is attributed to Shul Jean Matheu (Hoffman?) 1600's. (pg.67)
Facing halfmoons are found on a German made sword, maker unknown, dated 1620-1630.
I hope someone has richer literature on the topic than I do and can correct or add on to what I gathered.
What makes me lean toward late 17 cenury (or perhaps very early 18th) is the cut of the mark itself, a full heavy stamp, not a contour as is usually te case in the 18th c. (please corrct me if my belief is mistaken).
I understand Wolviex leaning toward 18th c. based on the balde style, this was my thought exactly when I was purchasing this pallash.
Wolviex, I know you were joking about the executioner stuff.
Next topic should be executioner estocs