First Keris - Page 2

A. G. Maisey · 15th June 2007, 07:54 AM

Then there was good ole Bony's opinion:-

"History is a set of lies that people have agreed upon"

But its all good fun---isn't it?

ganjawulung · 16th June 2007, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

....According to me, Raden Wijaya/Kertarajasa was married to FOUR daughters of Kertanegara, namely, Tribhuwana, Jayendradewi, Prajnyaparamita/Rajendradewi and Gayatri/Rajapatni.

Tribhuwana WAS NOT Tribhuwanatunggadewi.
Tribhuwanatunggadewi was the daughter of Gayatri and full-sister to Dyah Wiyah Rajadewi.

Dyah Hayam Wuruk Sri Rajasanagara ruled in the period: 1351 - 1389 CE. .

Dear Pangeran Datu,
I agree with you, that in many cases, (say it) there is no absolute truth in history.

This is a real example. There was a contrary opinion between Prof CC Berg and WF Stutterheim on Adityawarman, although both of them were known as experts on Majapahit era.

According to Prof Berg, Dara Jingga was the daughter of Kertanegara (Prof Stutterheim: Dara Jingga was not the daughter of Kertanegara, but the daughter of Melayu King (Dharmasraya king) Tribuwanaraja Mauliwarmadewa. In his book (in Dutch) "De Sadeng-oorlog en de mythe van groot Majapahit". Prof Berg wrote that Dyah Dara Jingga was married to Raden Sanggramawijaya or Kertarajasa Jayawardana (First king of Majapahit). And their son was Arya Damar or Adityawarman. Thus, according to Prof Berg, Adityawarman was the youngest son of Raden Wijaya. Contrary to Mr Stutterheim's opinion.

Prof Berg's opinion, according to Prof Dr Slamet Muljana, was also contrary to the old texts of Kidung Panji Wijayakrama (Songs of Panji Wijayakrama) and Pararaton. According to those two old texts, either Dara Jingga or his sister Dara Petak were two Melayu blood, which was brought from "Pamalayu Expedition"... Dara Petak was married to Raden Wijaya, and Dara Jingga actually had been married to Adwayawarman, Singasari's hero who stayed in Sumatera after the Singasari expedition...

Yes, you are correct, Tribuana was not Tribuana Tunggadewi. Tribuana and also Gayatri were two daughters of (king of Kediri) Kertanegara. And the two Kertanegara's daughters, had two daughters: Tribuana Tunggadewi (and then called as Bhre Kahuripan) and Rajadevi Maharajasa (Bhre Daha).

Jayanegara (the half blood Prince) became king of Majapahit in 1309 CE, and was killed in his bed while ill by Tanca. Tanca than killed by Gajah Mada, the patih of Majapahit.

Gajahmada than appointed Bhre Kahuripan (Tribuana Tunggadewi) and Bhre Daha (Rajadevi Maharajasa) as "Rani" (woman-kings) of Majapahit. Tribuana Tunggadewi than married to Kertawardana and their decent was Hayam Wuruk (Abhiseka Rajasanagara), the greatest king of Majapahit kingdom...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

To quote a friend of mine, Supomo Surjohudojo: '... in any tradition it is not the facts, the 'cold' facts, which are the truth, but rather how people see the facts, how people interpret them in accordance with their traditional way of life, and finally how people absorb them into their warm blood so that they become a part of their lives; that is indeed the truth'.

Cheers.

Yes, Pangeran. I agree with your friends opinion.... Bravo!

PenangsangII · 17th June 2007, 06:46 AM

Dear Pak Ganjawulung,

So, the great Prabhu Hayam Wuruk was not a direct decendant of Kertarajasa Jayawardana?

Another thing, there was a conspiracy theory to oust Prabhu Jayanegara - it was said that Ra Tanca (the palace doctor) was coerced by Patih Gajah Mada & Tribhuwana Tunggadewi to poison the young king who was planning to marry all three of his half sisters. Ra Tanca went along with the plan because of grudges on Jayanegara for stealing his wife and destroying his good friend who had rebelled against Majapahit - Ra Kuti. Coincidently, Patih Gajah Mada was the one who had reinstated Jayanegara by crushing the rebellion.

Pak Ganja and all, I would like to add one question, during this turmoil period, what kind (pakem?) of keris used by the courtiers? From what I saw in the movies, the actors were using keris resembling modern Surakarta pieces

. My guess is, should'nt it be keris lurus Jalak Sangu Tumpeng made famous by Arya Hanggareksa?

Pangeran Datu · 18th June 2007, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

.... My guess is, should'nt it be keris lurus Jalak Sangu Tumpeng made famous by Arya Hanggareksa?

AsWrWb

Hi PenangsangII,

I know nothing at all about the film so I may be totally off the mark
I assume that you are referring to a film about the Jayanagara era (1309 - 1328).
If this is so, then I'm afraid that I'll have to disagree with your suggestion.
I believe that the Dapur Jalak Sangu Tumpeng was originally commissioned by Dyah Hayam Wuruk Sri Rajasanagara (1350 - 1389).
So there would be a discrepancy of at least two decades.

WRT films... one should not take them too seriously, otherwise one may be driven to distraction. Insanity, even.

Films need to be taken with a grain of salt ( sometimes, even a whole shaker-full). They tend to exercise artistic licence to the limit; sometimes, even beyond.

Cheers.

WsWrWb

A. G. Maisey · 18th June 2007, 08:54 AM

Very true Pangeran, very true.

But Zulu was pretty spot on---so the experts tell me.

Talking of pinches of salt, are you suggesting that we do not need any salt with the beliefs of who commissioned what keris and when?

Pangeran Datu · 21st June 2007, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Very true Pangeran, very true.

But Zulu was pretty spot on---so the experts tell me.

Talking of pinches of salt, are you suggesting that we do not need any salt with the beliefs of who commissioned what keris and when?

AsWrWb

Hi Alan,

I am glad if something is a faithful re-enactment. It becomes a reliable source of reference for future generations, rather than leading them astray.

I tend to steer clear of using the 'expert' label. I'm sure you've heard of the two verbal definitions of 'expert' that comes to mind.

WRT NaOH ... everyone has their own idea of how much salt to use, just as they have their own realities and belief systems. Far be it for me to proscribe/prescribe.
I merely shared my opinion and what I know. Personally, it ultimately boils down to a question of faith: how much faith I have in a piece of data.
Is THE ANSWER: '42'?

BTW... how often do you clear your PM? When I replied to your PM, it bounced back because yours was chockers.

Cheers.

WsWrWb

A. G. Maisey · 21st June 2007, 01:33 AM

Re the PM business, I got a message telling me you tried to send a message and that my box was full, but according to the way I read the numbers, it was nowhere near full. Its pretty close to empty now.

"Expert"?

Yeah, if I was writing carefully constructed English to convey an inarguable opinion, I would not use the word. But I'm writing colloquially, and I intend these words to be read colloquially.

"Faith" ?

Not much.
In my business we're not allowed to have faith in anything.

'42 ?

I do not understand.

drdavid · 21st June 2007, 01:50 AM

Hi Alan
in Douglas Adams series of comedic sci-fi books, the first of which was The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, the ultimate question; What is the meaning of life the universe and everything ? was fed into a massive supercomputer, which after some millenia spat out the answer '42'. It has become shorthand for the answer to questions that ultimately have no concrete answer.

The late Douglas Adams also gave very succinct definitions for a variety of things...my favourite is his definition of technology which is Really cool stuff that almost works

DrD

A. G. Maisey · 21st June 2007, 04:45 AM

Well I guess you got me naked David.

Never read that book.In fact, there are many books I've never read. Should have :- have not.

By the time I get through my required reading I hardly get time to read all that much these days, and most of the time even the required reading gets the top LH corner to the bottom RH corner scan.

Kiai Carita · 22nd June 2007, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

AsWrWb

WRT NaOH ... everyone has their own idea of how much salt to use, ...
WsWrWb

Pangeran, are we talking of taking a pinch of caustic soda with our stories?

If I am not mistaken, in school I was taught that common salt -garam dapur- is NaCl. We played experiments by mixing caustic soda (NaOH) with hydrochloric acid (HCl) and got NaCl and H2O.

Warm salaams,
Bram

Pangeran Datu · 22nd June 2007, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiai Carita

Pangeran, are we talking of taking a pinch of caustic soda with our stories?

If I am not mistaken, in school I was taught that common salt -garam dapur- is NaCl. We played experiments by mixing caustic soda (NaOH) with hydrochloric acid (HCl) and got NaCl and H2O.

Warm salaams,
Bram

AsWrWb

Hi Bram,

I stand corrected. Thank you.

My apologies.
Of course you are correct: common salt is Sodium Chloride or Natrium Chloride (NaCl).
To err is human ...

Regards.

WsWrWb

17th June 2007, 06:46 AM	#33
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Majapahit revisited Dear Pak Ganjawulung, So, the great Prabhu Hayam Wuruk was not a direct decendant of Kertarajasa Jayawardana? Another thing, there was a conspiracy theory to oust Prabhu Jayanegara - it was said that Ra Tanca (the palace doctor) was coerced by Patih Gajah Mada & Tribhuwana Tunggadewi to poison the young king who was planning to marry all three of his half sisters. Ra Tanca went along with the plan because of grudges on Jayanegara for stealing his wife and destroying his good friend who had rebelled against Majapahit - Ra Kuti. Coincidently, Patih Gajah Mada was the one who had reinstated Jayanegara by crushing the rebellion. Pak Ganja and all, I would like to add one question, during this turmoil period, what kind (pakem?) of keris used by the courtiers? From what I saw in the movies, the actors were using keris resembling modern Surakarta pieces . My guess is, should'nt it be keris lurus Jalak Sangu Tumpeng made famous by Arya Hanggareksa?

21st June 2007, 01:50 AM	#38
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	42 Hi Alan in Douglas Adams series of comedic sci-fi books, the first of which was The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, the ultimate question; What is the meaning of life the universe and everything ? was fed into a massive supercomputer, which after some millenia spat out the answer '42'. It has become shorthand for the answer to questions that ultimately have no concrete answer. The late Douglas Adams also gave very succinct definitions for a variety of things...my favourite is his definition of technology which is Really cool stuff that almost works DrD

15th June 2007, 07:54 AM	#31
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Then there was good ole Bony's opinion:- "History is a set of lies that people have agreed upon" But its all good fun---isn't it?

18th June 2007, 08:54 AM	#35
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Very true Pangeran, very true. But Zulu was pretty spot on---so the experts tell me. Talking of pinches of salt, are you suggesting that we do not need any salt with the beliefs of who commissioned what keris and when?

21st June 2007, 01:33 AM	#37
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Re the PM business, I got a message telling me you tried to send a message and that my box was full, but according to the way I read the numbers, it was nowhere near full. Its pretty close to empty now. "Expert"? Yeah, if I was writing carefully constructed English to convey an inarguable opinion, I would not use the word. But I'm writing colloquially, and I intend these words to be read colloquially. "Faith" ? Not much. In my business we're not allowed to have faith in anything. '42 ? I do not understand.

21st June 2007, 04:45 AM	#39
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Well I guess you got me naked David. Never read that book.In fact, there are many books I've never read. Should have :- have not. By the time I get through my required reading I hardly get time to read all that much these days, and most of the time even the required reading gets the top LH corner to the bottom RH corner scan.