Help with the stamps please

Jens Nordlunde · 20th June 2007, 10:59 AM

Hi Alex,
Both marks seem to be very deep. Is the mark to the right a katar?
Jens

ALEX · 20th June 2007, 11:21 AM

Jens, it is difficult to make that determination, but it looks like it is.

RSWORD · 20th June 2007, 01:26 PM

The one stamp definitely looks to be a katar and the other stamp I believe is a trident. Unfortunately, cannot say if these are armoury marks, religious in nature, or what.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th June 2007, 01:55 PM

Alex, I have seen at least one other blade on this forum with a katar mark, the problem is, that I don’t remember who showed it and when it was, but it looked very much like the one you show. So lets hope someone sees this and comes forward.

What does the whole sword look like? Do you have any close ups of the hilt?

ALEX · 20th June 2007, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... What does the whole sword look like? Do you have any close ups of the hilt?

Jens, I found this blade as a rusty piece of metal, without a hilt. It has been cleaned and polished and it appears to be of a low contrast pattern welded steel. I am inclined to say it is of an Indian origin, but it's just a distant quess.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th June 2007, 03:48 PM

Alex, I think you can drop the ’inclined to say’. This blade is Indian, and I am glad you got it, and restored it. The interesting part now will be the digging, to find out from where in India it origins – happy digging. Should I find anything, rest assured that I will let you know.
Can we see the blade, just to see the form and the tang?
Could you also give us a close up of the katar?

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2007, 05:29 PM

The mark on the left is a trident and this is seen on tulwar blades in the same location in the center, upper third of the blade usually. The later examples of this from 19th c. seem to have become more stylized and look more like a bird foot. I have seen early tulwar blades with this trident and in the upper forte near the hilt a cartouche usually stamped in Urdu script.

Jens, I think in Rawson there is a tulwar with the markings described but cannot recall what illustration it was. Also, in Egerton, it seems in the chapter concerning Gujerat, there is detail on a tribal group who have a great deal of traditional focus on the katar. It is said, if memory serves, that they swear oaths, legal matters etc. on the katar, and that any failure or 'breach of the contract' would compell the swearer, even unto suicide for such dishonor. I recall in research years ago that I had considered the possibility that such blades bearing the katar stamp may have had to do with this tribe. The reason I am suggesting this to you is in hopes you might find that reference in Egerton as I do not have access to it, and I would be interested in your opinion. Its horrible without the books !!

In most cases the tulwars these markings turn up on seem to be from Rajasthan regions, and I had also considered Sikh provenance but no convincing support for that has become known to me.

All the best,
Jim

20th June 2007, 03:48 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alex, I think you can drop the ’inclined to say’. This blade is Indian, and I am glad you got it, and restored it. The interesting part now will be the digging, to find out from where in India it origins – happy digging. Should I find anything, rest assured that I will let you know. Can we see the blade, just to see the form and the tang? Could you also give us a close up of the katar? Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 20th June 2007 at 04:22 PM.

20th June 2007, 10:59 AM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Alex, Both marks seem to be very deep. Is the mark to the right a katar? Jens

20th June 2007, 11:21 AM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Jens, it is difficult to make that determination, but it looks like it is.

20th June 2007, 01:26 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	The one stamp definitely looks to be a katar and the other stamp I believe is a trident. Unfortunately, cannot say if these are armoury marks, religious in nature, or what.

20th June 2007, 01:55 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alex, I have seen at least one other blade on this forum with a katar mark, the problem is, that I don’t remember who showed it and when it was, but it looked very much like the one you show. So lets hope someone sees this and comes forward. What does the whole sword look like? Do you have any close ups of the hilt?

20th June 2007, 05:29 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	The mark on the left is a trident and this is seen on tulwar blades in the same location in the center, upper third of the blade usually. The later examples of this from 19th c. seem to have become more stylized and look more like a bird foot. I have seen early tulwar blades with this trident and in the upper forte near the hilt a cartouche usually stamped in Urdu script. Jens, I think in Rawson there is a tulwar with the markings described but cannot recall what illustration it was. Also, in Egerton, it seems in the chapter concerning Gujerat, there is detail on a tribal group who have a great deal of traditional focus on the katar. It is said, if memory serves, that they swear oaths, legal matters etc. on the katar, and that any failure or 'breach of the contract' would compell the swearer, even unto suicide for such dishonor. I recall in research years ago that I had considered the possibility that such blades bearing the katar stamp may have had to do with this tribe. The reason I am suggesting this to you is in hopes you might find that reference in Egerton as I do not have access to it, and I would be interested in your opinion. Its horrible without the books !! In most cases the tulwars these markings turn up on seem to be from Rajasthan regions, and I had also considered Sikh provenance but no convincing support for that has become known to me. All the best, Jim