Looks like a good one?

Tim Simmons · 11th June 2007, 01:47 PM

Somebody got a good buy? They could have made bit of a gamble. I do not know much about these but it looks okay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=280121848546

Flavio · 11th June 2007, 05:17 PM

Hey Tim, you're a lucky boy

Looks good and I think is good !!! Congrats

Tim Simmons · 11th June 2007, 06:26 PM

Thanks Flavio. I think a small piece of the hilt is missing but at the price I suppose I can live with it.

Flavio · 11th June 2007, 06:32 PM

Yes Tim, maybe a little piece is missing, what a shame!!!! How you can live with this!!!!! Noooo for sure you can't, so send to me the kris

More, this one is not african sooooo..... you already have my address

Battara · 13th June 2007, 02:36 AM

Nice solid Moro kris, possible Maguindanao (need to double check on that).

Tim Simmons · 22nd June 2007, 08:09 PM

I did take a bit of a gamble on the sellers pics but it has all turned out fine. I am not familiar with these weapons. This is very interesting, the quality and lightness reminds me of some of the best African work. I would say it handles much better than the best African sword like weapons. I can see that there is a forge pattern in the blade. There is a curious forge welded right angle section at the base of the blade before the separate guard piece. It is all compete with no damage to the pommel which I thought was damaged. The scabbard is very interesting, made of two pieces of wood. One piece has the scabbard mouth carved as part of it. The other piece slots in, both pieces are fixed at the end by a horn ring and rattan binding. It seems to me a quality weapon and its plain appearance may reflect a more back woods origin? I think I can understand the hullabaloo about these weapons a little more.

this mark {letters} is carved into the wood at the scabbard mouth.

Lew · 22nd June 2007, 08:26 PM

Tim

That is a nice find. The sword is an older example late 19th or early 20th century. Two piece ganja and old style steel baca baca.

Congrats

Lew

kai · 22nd June 2007, 10:46 PM

Congrats, Tim, that's a really good first one!

Quote:

I am not familiar with these weapons. This is very interesting, the quality and lightness reminds me of some of the best African work. I would say it handles much better than the best African sword like weapons.

Bait, hook, and line...

I'd guess this originates from the 2nd half of the 19th century, maybe late 19th c. I'd be interested to hear wether Jose confirms his first impression of a Maguindanao origin. There seems to be a bit of Sulu influence, too.

BTW, the blade length of 22" is correct?

Quote:

I can see that there is a forge pattern in the blade.

The blade would certainly benefit from a light etch with hot vinegar - this brings out the pattern quite nicely and is the traditional style rather than keeping the blade in high polish.

Quote:

There is a curious forge welded right angle section at the base of the blade before the separate guard piece.

That's an old tang repair. I assume the other side looks alike?

Quote:

It is all compete with no damage to the pommel which I thought was damaged.

I think there was an old damage to the top end of the pommel which has been polished out long, long ago. No problem, seems like several Moro generations lived happily with it.

There certainly was a silver "ferrule" at the base of the hilt. The grip bindings have been redone (good quality), so it's possible that there was even a bit more silverwork to the hilt originally.

The elephant's face at the gangya seems to have been modified - probably the trunk got damaged and needed to be shortened.

Quote:

The scabbard is very interesting, made of two pieces of wood. One piece has the scabbard mouth carved as part of it. The other piece slots in, both pieces are fixed at the end by a horn ring and rattan binding.

That's a construction not often seen. The scabbard seems to be of real age which is a rare sight these days. I really like it!

Quote:

It seems to me a quality weapon and its plain appearance may reflect a more back woods origin?

I'd guess that the owner was a common warrior. Only Moro of higher status were allowed to wear more ornate kris.

Quote:

I think I can understand the hullabaloo about these weapons a little more.

Bait, hook, and line...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 22nd June 2007, 10:50 PM

Quote:

this mark {letters} is carved into the wood at the scabbard mouth.

Very likely carved in by a former non-Moro owner - perhaps a soldier?

Bill M · 22nd June 2007, 10:56 PM

Tim,

YOU ARE HOOKED!!! Yeah, swing that puppy (Albovias-ism

) around a while. You will be setting search eBay engines for more of 'em!

Email me.

Tim Simmons · 22nd June 2007, 11:01 PM

Kai, the blade is 22" long and very fine. I have just had to spot some diluted PVA on the first cord knots near the blade as the cord there is showing signs of rot and two pieces have come apart. I think I have caught it in time. If I have to I will do the same all over the chords.

Battara · 24th June 2007, 08:59 PM

Nice puppy (thanks Bill

)

Nice call Kai - I too think Maguindanao and late 19thc, although I will double check the "mouth" of the ganga just to make sure. I also think it is a battle kris and I agree that the silver ferrule is missing from the bottom. Repairs on the tangs were not unheard of at all - these were talked about on earlier posts.

All in all a nice piece (did I day puppy already?

).

Tim Simmons · 25th June 2007, 08:31 PM

Thank you for the very encouraging opinions. I do wonder on the tang repair? what ever it is it is really quite off centre, perhaps the tang does not go in the centre of the handle? I know I am new to these particular weapons but with respect, I am also unsure there was ever anything at the base of the handle. Here the rust on the clamps and most of all the patina of the wood from handling with no other ring marks seem to suggest it has been bare wood for some considerable time. Am I right in thinking that this weapon is wide spread including Moro land Philippines and Sulu Islands, parts of Borneo, and Malaya {Malaysia} The British had say in some of these areas. I know pieces do move around.

kai · 25th June 2007, 10:37 PM

Hello Tim,

Quote:

I do wonder on the tang repair? what ever it is it is really quite off centre, perhaps the tang does not go in the centre of the handle?

The repair is pretty off centre and also shorter than I've seen before - one could guess that the tang wasn't completely broken. Short of x-raying your piece, you'll only know the construction for sure when you remove the hilt though (and you'd need to destroy the bindings to do so).

Here are 2 examples showing the usual repair method nicely:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=14
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=25

Quote:

I know I am new to these particular weapons but with respect, I am also unsure there was ever anything at the base of the handle. Here the rust on the clamps and most of all the patina of the wood from handling with no other ring marks seem to suggest it has been bare wood for some considerable time.

Not necessarily: Often this was merely a thin sheet of silver rather than a sturdy ferrule.

Quote:

Am I right in thinking that this weapon is wide spread including Moro land Philippines and Sulu Islands, parts of Borneo, and Malaya {Malaysia} The British had say in some of these areas. I know pieces do move around.

Your's is a fairly typical Moro example. These also show up from Malaysia and Indonesia, especially where seafaring Moro (mainly Tausug) had extensive trade contacts (including permanent settlements): Borneo, eastern Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula, especially the Straits area. Probably initially based on Moro designs, keris sundang were also produced locally in these areas but these tend to show deviating features.

Given the widespread collecting habits in the UK, this could have as likely originated from an US source rather than being acquired from areas formerly administrated by the British, I guess.

Regards,
Kai

Tim Simmons · 27th June 2007, 09:32 PM

I have to say they look pretty rough stuff compered to mine

.

kai · 27th June 2007, 10:27 PM

Hello Tim,

Quote:

I have to say they look pretty rough stuff compered to mine

.

Keep in mind that these repairs are probably quite a bit older than that on your kris. I've seen quite a few more examples but would have a hard time to pull out the pics... Some of these are on par with yours but I can't remember any as short.

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 28th June 2007, 03:13 AM

Could it be that Tim's repair is due to a forging flaw and subsequent loss of material in that area??

Is it the same on the other side of the blade Tim?

Tim Simmons · 28th June 2007, 07:34 AM

Yes it is the same on both sides. I am not sure what age has to do with rough work

11th June 2007, 01:47 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks like a good one? Somebody got a good buy? They could have made bit of a gamble. I do not know much about these but it looks okay. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=280121848546

11th June 2007, 05:17 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hey Tim, you're a lucky boy Looks good and I think is good !!! Congrats Last edited by Flavio; 11th June 2007 at 06:01 PM.

22nd June 2007, 08:09 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I did take a bit of a gamble on the sellers pics but it has all turned out fine. I am not familiar with these weapons. This is very interesting, the quality and lightness reminds me of some of the best African work. I would say it handles much better than the best African sword like weapons. I can see that there is a forge pattern in the blade. There is a curious forge welded right angle section at the base of the blade before the separate guard piece. It is all compete with no damage to the pommel which I thought was damaged. The scabbard is very interesting, made of two pieces of wood. One piece has the scabbard mouth carved as part of it. The other piece slots in, both pieces are fixed at the end by a horn ring and rattan binding. It seems to me a quality weapon and its plain appearance may reflect a more back woods origin? I think I can understand the hullabaloo about these weapons a little more. this mark {letters} is carved into the wood at the scabbard mouth. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 22nd June 2007 at 08:27 PM.

28th June 2007, 03:13 AM	#17
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Not a Broken Tang ? Could it be that Tim's repair is due to a forging flaw and subsequent loss of material in that area?? Is it the same on the other side of the blade Tim?

11th June 2007, 06:26 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks Flavio. I think a small piece of the hilt is missing but at the price I suppose I can live with it.

11th June 2007, 06:32 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Yes Tim, maybe a little piece is missing, what a shame!!!! How you can live with this!!!!! Noooo for sure you can't, so send to me the kris More, this one is not african sooooo..... you already have my address

13th June 2007, 02:36 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Nice solid Moro kris, possible Maguindanao (need to double check on that).

22nd June 2007, 08:26 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim That is a nice find. The sword is an older example late 19th or early 20th century. Two piece ganja and old style steel baca baca. Congrats Lew

22nd June 2007, 10:56 PM	#10
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Tim, YOU ARE HOOKED!!! Yeah, swing that puppy (Albovias-ism ) around a while. You will be setting search eBay engines for more of 'em! Email me.

22nd June 2007, 11:01 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Kai, the blade is 22" long and very fine. I have just had to spot some diluted PVA on the first cord knots near the blade as the cord there is showing signs of rot and two pieces have come apart. I think I have caught it in time. If I have to I will do the same all over the chords.

24th June 2007, 08:59 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Nice puppy (thanks Bill ) Nice call Kai - I too think Maguindanao and late 19thc, although I will double check the "mouth" of the ganga just to make sure. I also think it is a battle kris and I agree that the silver ferrule is missing from the bottom. Repairs on the tangs were not unheard of at all - these were talked about on earlier posts. All in all a nice piece (did I day puppy already? ).

25th June 2007, 08:31 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thank you for the very encouraging opinions. I do wonder on the tang repair? what ever it is it is really quite off centre, perhaps the tang does not go in the centre of the handle? I know I am new to these particular weapons but with respect, I am also unsure there was ever anything at the base of the handle. Here the rust on the clamps and most of all the patina of the wood from handling with no other ring marks seem to suggest it has been bare wood for some considerable time. Am I right in thinking that this weapon is wide spread including Moro land Philippines and Sulu Islands, parts of Borneo, and Malaya {Malaysia} The British had say in some of these areas. I know pieces do move around.

27th June 2007, 09:32 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I have to say they look pretty rough stuff compered to mine .

28th June 2007, 07:34 AM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yes it is the same on both sides. I am not sure what age has to do with rough work