Pics: Snake-like Curves

ganjawulung · 4th June 2007, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

...the borderline between nem-neman and sepuh may be vary. to people who favor majapahit will consider keris made afterwards as nem-neman. to people who favor mataram will consider mataram kerises as tangguh sepuh.

to me, if and only if, the date of keris made is younger than my birthday will be considered as nem-neman. it relates to my dream. instead of as part of history, I want to watch keris as a part of art which is still being developped by society. Whenever keris becomes a part of history, so does javanese.

Many thing always debatable in this keris world. Here yes, and There no. It is no wonder. Like Yogyakarta and Surakarta for instant, in the neighbouring city but "opposing each other" in the past, often found contradictory. In Wayang play, Arjuna played by women dancer in Solo, but by men in Yogya. Modern kerises developped very quick and advanced in Solo, but very very slow in Yogya. And in many cultural aspects, you'll see contradictories between Yogya and Solo. It is quite dikotomic. Although only 64 km apart...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 4th June 2007, 09:38 AM

Thanks very much for those pics, Ganja.

Sorry it took me a few days to get back to this thread. I was involved in sporting competition over the weekend.

Pengging is a problematical tangguh. I've seen a number of keris that have been identified as Pengging by people whose opinion I must respect, but never two keris the same. The concensus of opinion seems to indicate that what I show below are the dominant characteristics of tangguh Pengging, but getting two knowledgeable people to agree that a particular keris is Pengging seems to be asking for a lot.

Characteristics of a keris of tangguh Pengging:

Tanting:- light

Besi:- fine grained and dense

Pamor:- a rough distinct grain that sometimes runs across the blade rather than parrallel with the edges

Baja:- middle quality, correctly forged and heat-treated.

Pawakan:- the cross section is like rotan; some keris have kruwingan; the wanda (sorry, I cannot give an adequate English word) is a haunted feeling.

Gonjo:-sirah cecak very finely pointed, but sometimes rounded, gulu meled is very long, cross section of gonjo is rounded

Gandhik:- large, well proportioned, but rather short.

Blumbangan:- boto rubuh (fallen brick), deep and wide

Sogokan:- wide, deep, round bottomed and sides undercut

Ada-ada:- small and not to a sharp ridge

Kruwingan:- deep and continuing to the point (where kruwingan exists)

Luk:- very deep , steep curves; these curves are very different to those found in all other keris.

Wadidang:- a long deep curve that starts suddenly.

The three most respected ahli keris whom I have known during my life were all in agreement that these are the characteristics of a Pengging keris, however, getting universal agreement from them that a specific blade was Pengging was an entirely different matter.

Probably the major problem that tangguh presents is that in recent years collectors and dealers have wanted to apply it to classes of keris that it was never intended for, and the result is that now we have a very great deal of confusion.

Personally, I am extremely reluctant to be at all definite in respect of tangguh from any photographs. Even the very best, top quality studio photographs in hardcopy can be misleading, to try to play the tangguh game from internet photos is something that is simply beyond my ability. Yeah, something like an old, degraded Segaluh, I'm prepared to give a qualified opinion on, but most other classifications, I would want the bare blade in my hand before I'd be prepared to venture an opinion.You cannot feel the weight and balance from a photo, and you cannot feel the material. You cannot look at the weld joint where the pamor meets the steel core, and see what sort of welding has been done. Plus 100 other things you cannot do from a photo. As Ganjawulung has already pointed out, you need to handle thousands of blades under respected guidance before you can get a feel for tangguh, you cannot learn it from books. I don't believe it is possible to give positive tangguh opinions from photos, either.And tombak are 100 times more difficult than keris.

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

ganjawulung · 5th June 2007, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

Which Jawa? Solo?

ganjawulung · 5th June 2007, 07:27 AM

Disturb you, again and again... With pictures. This supposed (yes, just suppossed) to be Segaluh style, if not the tangguh Segaluh... Please forgive me for disturbing you, again and again...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 5th June 2007, 08:24 AM

Tangguh giving men something to talk about?

Actually, I heard it first, maybe 25 or 30 years ago in Malang.At the same time I heard a lot more jokes specifically directed at Solo and Jogja people---jokes that do not bear repeating.

Then I heard it again in a different form from a good friend, who happens to be a woman, in Solo.

Mans · 5th June 2007, 12:07 PM

Pak Ganjawulung

Thank you for your expertise. “Nangguh” keris or to estimate where and when the keris had made is a one aspect on keris culture placed on the top rank on the keris knowledge. And I’m sure that you knew about that. Indeed that the Tangguh of keris can be analysis from many aspects. And I thought the men who has good experiences about the keris culture know well about this. Especialy men who live and interaction in the culture where the keris had made and used. To analys the keris we cannot leave the cultures, because the keris not just a thing or object. The keris is a cultural pieces too.

And was right that some aspect to analysis the tangguh can be seen on the blade style. Like luk style, panetes, greneng, gonjo, kembang kacang, wadidhang, tikel alis, trep-trepan pamor (pamor and iron blended), etc... Tantingan and tingtingan usually can be used if we're not too sure about the era (period), like the keris which made on Segaluh (Tangguh Segaluh) and keris Segaluh which made on Mataram period (Tangguh Segaluh Yasan Mataram). So, the people who has good experiences and intently to learn the keris culture (not just at keris market of course), had seen too many keris style and always well touching with the keris everyday can guessing the keris by seeing the form of the keris and ricikans without handed the keris by them self. So, from the pictures we also can guessing (nangguh) the keris, especially to know by our self. And I think this topic ever discuss on other thread.

As the cultural object and talisman, the keris gave many deep meaning like philosophy, histories and honour of cultural aspect. So, everything on the keris, especially Tangguh, not just trifling. That just my humble opinion, Pak Ganja

And regaring my keris which has luk rengkol, this can be a Daleman Sumenep keris which estimated about 18th century. So, as your expertice, this keris has ricikans as Sumenep Maduranese keris. And it shown to me that not just a Pengging keris which has luk rengkol. Some keris from Mataram Sultan Agung priode also has deep luk like the Pengging keris.
So, thanks a lot for your expertise

A. G. Maisey · 5th June 2007, 11:59 PM

Pak Mans, although you were addressing Pak Ganja in your most recent post, it is obvious that at least some of my remarks were in your mind, thus, although you did not deign to address your comments to me, I have no hesitation in addressing my comments to you.

When we give an opinion on anything, we need to be able to defend that opinion.

If the opinion cannot be defended, it is merely empty words.

When we give an opinion on the tangguh of a keris, we need to be able provide a solid argument in respect of exactly why we believe the keris to be one tangguh, rather than another.As you so correctly point out, those who deal seriously and conscientiously in keris knowledge may not regard any elements of the keris in a trifling manner.

I agree with you, it is possible to guess at a tangguh from a picture of a keris.

It is even possible to guess at a tangguh when all we see is the top of the gonjo with the keris still in the wrongko.

It is possible to guess at the tangguh of a keris that previously occupied a wrongko.

It is possible to guess at the tangguh of a keris with our eyes shut, and relying only on feel.

However, it is not possible to provide a defensible opinion in respect of the tangguh of a keris, unless we handle the keris.Just as it is not possible to learn tangguh from pictures.

We should remember that a guess is not an opinion, and the meaning of "tangguh" when applied to the keris does carry the sense of "opinion", not "guess".

In private correspondence between friends, it may be quite legitimate to venture an opinion on the tangguh of a keris, based only on a photograph.

However, in a public forum I consider it irresponsible to provide opinions of tangguh which are based on only photographs.

Pak Mans, your level of keris knowledge and understanding is clearly high, as is the knowledge and understanding of Pak Ganja. However. many people who read and contribute to this forum do not have similar levels of knowledge, most especially in respect of tangguh. Providing guesses at tangguh, rather than defensible opinions can do irreparable damage to the potential of these people to learn.

I would ask you to consider this example:-

if we go to the doctor with some illness, that doctor , if he is at all competent, will use all means at his disposal to diagnose the illness before he provides an opinion on exactly what the illness is. He does this because apart from the duty of care he has to his patient, he knows that if he is wrong, and cannot defend the opinion he provided, he could face severe consequences.

If the doctor has vast experience, he may venture an opinion in respect of some illnesses upon the basis of the patient's description of the problem, and what can be seen.In some instances, this could even be done without the patient being present.

However, if a lay person, lacking medical experience observed this "arms length" diagnosis, that lay person could well come to believe that competent diagnoses could be made in all cases in the absence of the patient.

Compare this example to the practice of providing guesses at the tangguh of keris, based upon a photographic image of that keris.

I feel that it may be legitimate practice to publish a photograph of a keris which one has handled, and provide an opinion on the tangguh of that keris, together with the reasons which have helped in the formation of that opinion. This could be of value and could assist in the increase of knowledge of those who have not had the benefit of close personal experience in gaining a knowledge of tangguh.

However, I also feel that to provide "guesses" at the tangguh of a keris which has not been handled , and for which it is impossible to give a supported opinion , is at best less than wise, and at worst misleading and destructive.

What I have written above is my opinion, and as always I acknowledge that the opinions of others may vary from my own. I have no wish to impose my opinions upon the actions of other people, all I ask is that what I put forward be considered, together with the possible implications flowing from continuance of providing "guesses" at tangguh, rather than supportable opinions, and taking into account that no serious student of the keris regards anything to do with the keris in a trifling manner.

ganjawulung · 7th June 2007, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

Dear Alan, Mans, and All,
Of course, I must be responsible with everything I did in this forum. if I didn't mention the things what you need in this thread (the details of keris, and so on), it was mainly a matter of difficulty to communicate the idea in English, to you all. Although not only that.

I am not joking with tangguh, though I only have a short experience in "loving" the keris world. Because, for me now, tangguh is one of the most important to learn to be able to appreciate the beauty of kerises. Really. What happened if I only know dhapur, and then suddenly faced with ten kerises, all of them bearing dhapur of tilamupih (straight), but in 10 different style, different tangguh?

Actually, the same question emerged in my mind when I was reading the Tammens' book (De Kris, Magic Relic of old Indonesia) a couple of years ago. I said, hey, how come? He presented in 157 pages (from page 114 to 271) pictures (only of course) of 79 kerises, tombaks and wedung -- all with tangguh -- but no details on why he presented this as tangguh this and that...

Some of them, are not correct, although mostly "correct". One of the not correct one is: "keris majapahit" that is actually "old small keris for offering" (which often erroneously called too as 'keris pichit' in Malay). Did I think Tammens was irresponsible?

I never put my belief in reading or hearing anything from everyone -- taken for granted. I always preserve my belief, and then, proof myself which is actually the truth. By experiencing, seeing the real thing. Was Tammens' error destruct my knowledge? Of course not. Tammens is one of my respected "teacher", although only from his book. And also, from my Javanese teacher, to know the nuance behind the objective thing. Not just kerises.

Anyway, I would ask you apology if there was any mistake from me that you considered to be irresponsible and destructive. Of course that was not my intention to. What was in my mind that, this is a "warung kopi", and not an academic forum. Although, of course, I must be responsible in whatever I did in this non academic forum.

Thank you Alan, and all. I agree with you, that it is impossible to estimate accurately the tangguh, in absence the kerises...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 7th June 2007, 06:21 AM

Ganja, nothing I have written has been intended as targetted criticism: it has been intended as an attempt to try to bring discussion of tangguh to a level and format that can operate from photographs and written communication, and assist, rather than hinder, the increase of knowledge for people who know almost nothing about tangguh.

Irresponsible and destructive actions can probably only be considered to be this when they are carried out with irresponsible and destructive intent.

Where the intent is absent, although the end result may be destruction, irresponsibility cannot be claimed.

Since in this matter there can be no charge of irresponsibility levelled, there is clearly no call for any apologies to be made.

Now that we all seem to travelling in the same direction, I feel that the way is open to continue to discuss tangguh, but using the approach of qualifying our opinions, rather than phasing them in absolute terms.

Regarding Mr. Tammens and his determinations in respect of tangguh. Some years ago I had a long and informative discussion with a highly respected Dutch keris authority and author about Mr. Tammens and tangguh. I was told that if questioned as to the reasons why a particular keris was this tangguh, or that tangguh, Mr. Tammens would not give an explanation of the indicators that permitted him to classify the keris, but simply say it was this tangguh because it had the characteristics of this tangguh. It would appear that Mr. Tammens' principal teacher was an ex-patriot Javanese gentleman, so perhaps this overaching approach is the way in which Mr. Tammens was taught, rather than the analytical approach, which is the way I was taught. In any case, when I explained and demonstrated to the Dutch author the way in which we can break the characteristics of a blade down into components, and even sub-components, and measure these components against a pre-determined standard it became very clear to him exactly how an ahli keris will determine the tangguh of a blade. I must admit, many of the people I have known who will give an opinion on tangguh do not consciously apply this same analytical approach, but when questioned, they will give answers that can be analytically aligned with the predetermined standards that I was taught.

After Mr. Tammens published his first volume, I heard an amusing story in Solo. It seems that one particular keris orientated Solonese gentleman was so incensed at what he considered to be the inaccurate information in Mr. Tammens' book, that he took it upon himself to visit Mr. Tammens in an attempt to set the record straight. I cannot vouch for this story:- it is Solo gossip, and we know what that can be like.

Ganja, when you say this is not an academic forum, I for one would very much like to believe that you are correct. We have seen the academic approach to this type of subject, and since academia does have a very prominent element of self advancement and reputation building, it can be quite destructive to goodwill and a free exchange of information and ideas. Personally, I would prefer to see us all stay friendly and stupid, rather than enlightened, if enlightenment should come at the cost of goodwill.Yeah, we're all just sitting around in the warung, pretty relaxed, nursing our cups of coffee, and swapping info back and forth. Nothing to get uptight about.But let's try to qualify those opinions about which we cannot be too certain.

Raden Usman Djogja · 7th June 2007, 08:54 AM

Alan & all kerislovers,

I do ask you, all, apology if there were short and unexpalined comments of mine which could damage the foundation of keris knowledge, especially for the "beginner"

I do hope to all readers, if any question mark in mind to write those questions in this lovely "warung kopi" forum. Seemingly, ghost readers are much much much more than talkactive members. By doing this, at least, we can repair or control the possible damage. So, the sharing of responsibility not only on the writer's shoulder but also on the reader's shoulder are crucial and important.

Usman

A. G. Maisey · 7th June 2007, 09:07 AM

I could not agree more Usman.

I would dearly love to see more of the people whom I know to read the posts to this little warung contribute directly to it by posting comments and questions.

David · 7th June 2007, 02:49 PM

There are no stupid questions my friends and i would also like to encourage my fellow forumites to step up and ask when statements are unqualified or not completely clear to them. The study of keris is deep and complex and still holds much controversy and mystery. Tangguh may be one of it's most misunderstood components and is often misapplied to keris that were never intended to be judged by the system.
I would like to thank all of you for keeping this discussion civil and friendly. While i agree that this is not an academic forum i would still like to see the quality of the information passed on here to remain at a high level of detail and accuracy, so i do think it is important that we all try to qualify and back up our statements as best we can. It is also OK to throw out completely unsupportable ideas and theories as long as we identify them as such. Nothing wrong with stirring the pot every now and then to see what might rise to the surface.

This type of loose and relaxed exchange of ideas can often lead to more solid understandings, sometimes quite by accident. As has already been stated, there are many new keris collectors out there thirsting for knowledge. There has also obviously been quite a lot of misinformation passed around about the keris over the years. While not an academic forum, i still think it is our responsibility to the keris community to do our best to foster accurate information and break down the misconceptions that have taken root over the years.

kai · 7th June 2007, 09:38 PM

Quote:

I would dearly love to see more of the people whom I know to read the posts to this little warung contribute directly to it by posting comments and questions.

While I often don't have to add anything to the ongoing discussions, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank those experienced members who share their knowledge as well as opinions/estimates/best guesses/etc.

I especially appreciate that more people have already taken the time to detail (some of) the reasons on which their conclusions have been based. Thanks for highlighting this very important point, Alan!

I also welcome the renewed interest/activity for keris Jawa very much even if these are not the focus of my current personal interest - keep it coming! No need to apologize for any of those valuable recent contributions/pics!

Regards,
Kai

5th June 2007, 07:27 AM	#4
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Segaluh? Disturb you, again and again... With pictures. This supposed (yes, just suppossed) to be Segaluh style, if not the tangguh Segaluh... Please forgive me for disturbing you, again and again... Ganjawulung Attached Images

5th June 2007, 12:07 PM	#6
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Pak Ganjawulung Thank you for your expertise. “Nangguh” keris or to estimate where and when the keris had made is a one aspect on keris culture placed on the top rank on the keris knowledge. And I’m sure that you knew about that. Indeed that the Tangguh of keris can be analysis from many aspects. And I thought the men who has good experiences about the keris culture know well about this. Especialy men who live and interaction in the culture where the keris had made and used. To analys the keris we cannot leave the cultures, because the keris not just a thing or object. The keris is a cultural pieces too. And was right that some aspect to analysis the tangguh can be seen on the blade style. Like luk style, panetes, greneng, gonjo, kembang kacang, wadidhang, tikel alis, trep-trepan pamor (pamor and iron blended), etc... Tantingan and tingtingan usually can be used if we're not too sure about the era (period), like the keris which made on Segaluh (Tangguh Segaluh) and keris Segaluh which made on Mataram period (Tangguh Segaluh Yasan Mataram). So, the people who has good experiences and intently to learn the keris culture (not just at keris market of course), had seen too many keris style and always well touching with the keris everyday can guessing the keris by seeing the form of the keris and ricikans without handed the keris by them self. So, from the pictures we also can guessing (nangguh) the keris, especially to know by our self. And I think this topic ever discuss on other thread. As the cultural object and talisman, the keris gave many deep meaning like philosophy, histories and honour of cultural aspect. So, everything on the keris, especially Tangguh, not just trifling. That just my humble opinion, Pak Ganja And regaring my keris which has luk rengkol, this can be a Daleman Sumenep keris which estimated about 18th century. So, as your expertice, this keris has ricikans as Sumenep Maduranese keris. And it shown to me that not just a Pengging keris which has luk rengkol. Some keris from Mataram Sultan Agung priode also has deep luk like the Pengging keris. So, thanks a lot for your expertise Attached Images

7th June 2007, 02:49 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	There are no stupid questions my friends and i would also like to encourage my fellow forumites to step up and ask when statements are unqualified or not completely clear to them. The study of keris is deep and complex and still holds much controversy and mystery. Tangguh may be one of it's most misunderstood components and is often misapplied to keris that were never intended to be judged by the system. I would like to thank all of you for keeping this discussion civil and friendly. While i agree that this is not an academic forum i would still like to see the quality of the information passed on here to remain at a high level of detail and accuracy, so i do think it is important that we all try to qualify and back up our statements as best we can. It is also OK to throw out completely unsupportable ideas and theories as long as we identify them as such. Nothing wrong with stirring the pot every now and then to see what might rise to the surface. This type of loose and relaxed exchange of ideas can often lead to more solid understandings, sometimes quite by accident. As has already been stated, there are many new keris collectors out there thirsting for knowledge. There has also obviously been quite a lot of misinformation passed around about the keris over the years. While not an academic forum, i still think it is our responsibility to the keris community to do our best to foster accurate information and break down the misconceptions that have taken root over the years. Last edited by David; 7th June 2007 at 07:39 PM.

4th June 2007, 09:38 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Thanks very much for those pics, Ganja. Sorry it took me a few days to get back to this thread. I was involved in sporting competition over the weekend. Pengging is a problematical tangguh. I've seen a number of keris that have been identified as Pengging by people whose opinion I must respect, but never two keris the same. The concensus of opinion seems to indicate that what I show below are the dominant characteristics of tangguh Pengging, but getting two knowledgeable people to agree that a particular keris is Pengging seems to be asking for a lot. Characteristics of a keris of tangguh Pengging: Tanting:- light Besi:- fine grained and dense Pamor:- a rough distinct grain that sometimes runs across the blade rather than parrallel with the edges Baja:- middle quality, correctly forged and heat-treated. Pawakan:- the cross section is like rotan; some keris have kruwingan; the wanda (sorry, I cannot give an adequate English word) is a haunted feeling. Gonjo:-sirah cecak very finely pointed, but sometimes rounded, gulu meled is very long, cross section of gonjo is rounded Gandhik:- large, well proportioned, but rather short. Blumbangan:- boto rubuh (fallen brick), deep and wide Sogokan:- wide, deep, round bottomed and sides undercut Ada-ada:- small and not to a sharp ridge Kruwingan:- deep and continuing to the point (where kruwingan exists) Luk:- very deep , steep curves; these curves are very different to those found in all other keris. Wadidang:- a long deep curve that starts suddenly. The three most respected ahli keris whom I have known during my life were all in agreement that these are the characteristics of a Pengging keris, however, getting universal agreement from them that a specific blade was Pengging was an entirely different matter. Probably the major problem that tangguh presents is that in recent years collectors and dealers have wanted to apply it to classes of keris that it was never intended for, and the result is that now we have a very great deal of confusion. Personally, I am extremely reluctant to be at all definite in respect of tangguh from any photographs. Even the very best, top quality studio photographs in hardcopy can be misleading, to try to play the tangguh game from internet photos is something that is simply beyond my ability. Yeah, something like an old, degraded Segaluh, I'm prepared to give a qualified opinion on, but most other classifications, I would want the bare blade in my hand before I'd be prepared to venture an opinion.You cannot feel the weight and balance from a photo, and you cannot feel the material. You cannot look at the weld joint where the pamor meets the steel core, and see what sort of welding has been done. Plus 100 other things you cannot do from a photo. As Ganjawulung has already pointed out, you need to handle thousands of blades under respected guidance before you can get a feel for tangguh, you cannot learn it from books. I don't believe it is possible to give positive tangguh opinions from photos, either.And tombak are 100 times more difficult than keris. I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

5th June 2007, 08:24 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Tangguh giving men something to talk about? Actually, I heard it first, maybe 25 or 30 years ago in Malang.At the same time I heard a lot more jokes specifically directed at Solo and Jogja people---jokes that do not bear repeating. Then I heard it again in a different form from a good friend, who happens to be a woman, in Solo.

5th June 2007, 11:59 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Pak Mans, although you were addressing Pak Ganja in your most recent post, it is obvious that at least some of my remarks were in your mind, thus, although you did not deign to address your comments to me, I have no hesitation in addressing my comments to you. When we give an opinion on anything, we need to be able to defend that opinion. If the opinion cannot be defended, it is merely empty words. When we give an opinion on the tangguh of a keris, we need to be able provide a solid argument in respect of exactly why we believe the keris to be one tangguh, rather than another.As you so correctly point out, those who deal seriously and conscientiously in keris knowledge may not regard any elements of the keris in a trifling manner. I agree with you, it is possible to guess at a tangguh from a picture of a keris. It is even possible to guess at a tangguh when all we see is the top of the gonjo with the keris still in the wrongko. It is possible to guess at the tangguh of a keris that previously occupied a wrongko. It is possible to guess at the tangguh of a keris with our eyes shut, and relying only on feel. However, it is not possible to provide a defensible opinion in respect of the tangguh of a keris, unless we handle the keris.Just as it is not possible to learn tangguh from pictures. We should remember that a guess is not an opinion, and the meaning of "tangguh" when applied to the keris does carry the sense of "opinion", not "guess". In private correspondence between friends, it may be quite legitimate to venture an opinion on the tangguh of a keris, based only on a photograph. However, in a public forum I consider it irresponsible to provide opinions of tangguh which are based on only photographs. Pak Mans, your level of keris knowledge and understanding is clearly high, as is the knowledge and understanding of Pak Ganja. However. many people who read and contribute to this forum do not have similar levels of knowledge, most especially in respect of tangguh. Providing guesses at tangguh, rather than defensible opinions can do irreparable damage to the potential of these people to learn. I would ask you to consider this example:- if we go to the doctor with some illness, that doctor , if he is at all competent, will use all means at his disposal to diagnose the illness before he provides an opinion on exactly what the illness is. He does this because apart from the duty of care he has to his patient, he knows that if he is wrong, and cannot defend the opinion he provided, he could face severe consequences. If the doctor has vast experience, he may venture an opinion in respect of some illnesses upon the basis of the patient's description of the problem, and what can be seen.In some instances, this could even be done without the patient being present. However, if a lay person, lacking medical experience observed this "arms length" diagnosis, that lay person could well come to believe that competent diagnoses could be made in all cases in the absence of the patient. Compare this example to the practice of providing guesses at the tangguh of keris, based upon a photographic image of that keris. I feel that it may be legitimate practice to publish a photograph of a keris which one has handled, and provide an opinion on the tangguh of that keris, together with the reasons which have helped in the formation of that opinion. This could be of value and could assist in the increase of knowledge of those who have not had the benefit of close personal experience in gaining a knowledge of tangguh. However, I also feel that to provide "guesses" at the tangguh of a keris which has not been handled , and for which it is impossible to give a supported opinion , is at best less than wise, and at worst misleading and destructive. What I have written above is my opinion, and as always I acknowledge that the opinions of others may vary from my own. I have no wish to impose my opinions upon the actions of other people, all I ask is that what I put forward be considered, together with the possible implications flowing from continuance of providing "guesses" at tangguh, rather than supportable opinions, and taking into account that no serious student of the keris regards anything to do with the keris in a trifling manner.

7th June 2007, 06:21 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Ganja, nothing I have written has been intended as targetted criticism: it has been intended as an attempt to try to bring discussion of tangguh to a level and format that can operate from photographs and written communication, and assist, rather than hinder, the increase of knowledge for people who know almost nothing about tangguh. Irresponsible and destructive actions can probably only be considered to be this when they are carried out with irresponsible and destructive intent. Where the intent is absent, although the end result may be destruction, irresponsibility cannot be claimed. Since in this matter there can be no charge of irresponsibility levelled, there is clearly no call for any apologies to be made. Now that we all seem to travelling in the same direction, I feel that the way is open to continue to discuss tangguh, but using the approach of qualifying our opinions, rather than phasing them in absolute terms. Regarding Mr. Tammens and his determinations in respect of tangguh. Some years ago I had a long and informative discussion with a highly respected Dutch keris authority and author about Mr. Tammens and tangguh. I was told that if questioned as to the reasons why a particular keris was this tangguh, or that tangguh, Mr. Tammens would not give an explanation of the indicators that permitted him to classify the keris, but simply say it was this tangguh because it had the characteristics of this tangguh. It would appear that Mr. Tammens' principal teacher was an ex-patriot Javanese gentleman, so perhaps this overaching approach is the way in which Mr. Tammens was taught, rather than the analytical approach, which is the way I was taught. In any case, when I explained and demonstrated to the Dutch author the way in which we can break the characteristics of a blade down into components, and even sub-components, and measure these components against a pre-determined standard it became very clear to him exactly how an ahli keris will determine the tangguh of a blade. I must admit, many of the people I have known who will give an opinion on tangguh do not consciously apply this same analytical approach, but when questioned, they will give answers that can be analytically aligned with the predetermined standards that I was taught. After Mr. Tammens published his first volume, I heard an amusing story in Solo. It seems that one particular keris orientated Solonese gentleman was so incensed at what he considered to be the inaccurate information in Mr. Tammens' book, that he took it upon himself to visit Mr. Tammens in an attempt to set the record straight. I cannot vouch for this story:- it is Solo gossip, and we know what that can be like. Ganja, when you say this is not an academic forum, I for one would very much like to believe that you are correct. We have seen the academic approach to this type of subject, and since academia does have a very prominent element of self advancement and reputation building, it can be quite destructive to goodwill and a free exchange of information and ideas. Personally, I would prefer to see us all stay friendly and stupid, rather than enlightened, if enlightenment should come at the cost of goodwill.Yeah, we're all just sitting around in the warung, pretty relaxed, nursing our cups of coffee, and swapping info back and forth. Nothing to get uptight about.But let's try to qualify those opinions about which we cannot be too certain.

7th June 2007, 08:54 AM	#10
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	Alan & all kerislovers, I do ask you, all, apology if there were short and unexpalined comments of mine which could damage the foundation of keris knowledge, especially for the "beginner" I do hope to all readers, if any question mark in mind to write those questions in this lovely "warung kopi" forum. Seemingly, ghost readers are much much much more than talkactive members. By doing this, at least, we can repair or control the possible damage. So, the sharing of responsibility not only on the writer's shoulder but also on the reader's shoulder are crucial and important. Usman

7th June 2007, 09:07 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	I could not agree more Usman. I would dearly love to see more of the people whom I know to read the posts to this little warung contribute directly to it by posting comments and questions.