Pics: Snake-like Curves

[Mans]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Mr Hidayat and All,

Tangguh is not a certainty. The word itself shows, that the meaning of "nangguh" (in keris term) is "guessing the period of making, based on specific details of the keris or spear").......
........
From which tangguh? Let's guessing your keris, afterwards...

Ganjawulung

Actually I still waiting for your expertise regarding my keris, Pak Ganjawulung.
Raden Usman had gave his opinion (thanks), and perhaps it can be a Pengging or Pakubuwanan keris. But I'm not sure, because the ricikans form of my keris not shown the Pengging keris. I think the Greneng and Jenggot too sharp and the ada-ada also sharp too for Pengging .

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Mans

Actually I still waiting for your expertise regarding my keris, Pak Ganjawulung.
Raden Usman had gave his opinion (thanks), and perhaps it can be a Pengging or Pakubuwanan keris. But I'm not sure, because the ricikans form of my keris not shown the Pengging keris. I think the Greneng and Jenggot too sharp and the ada-ada also sharp too for Pengging .

k

The luk's style, is pengging style. Very wavy. But if you see the details, you will find the 'strong' characteristics of "not tangguh pengging". Details of "rong dha nunut" (often erroneously spelled as "rondo nunut") or double greneng in the keris' tail, plus the complete ricikan/details in the gandhik -- see, there are "janggut" and "jenggot" on the "sekar kacang", clearly believed to be "Empu Kasa Style" or at least Madurese style.

"Rong dha Nunut" or double greneng, means "two dha above the greneng". Dha, is the 12th character of Caraka Script (ha, na, cha, ra, ka, da, ta, sa, wa, la, pa, dha, ja, ya, nya... etc). The form of one greneng, is "dha" in Caraka script. And "nunut" is "to go with someone, for instant if someone invite you to go with his car together...) Please don't spell it as "rondo nunut" or "I go together with a widow", or "The widow is living with me...". About this, of course Mas Mans Hidayat already knows well.

Many Mataram style kerises bear the complete ricikan like "Kasa's style" or Madurese style. Look also my "Kalabendu" luk 29 in the other thread. There are also double greneng, or "rong dha nunut". It supposed, that the empu of the Kalabendu keris, was Madurese origin.

About your keris, is quite embarassing. Because, the "garap" or work of art, is very fine. With kruwingan on both side of the blade, from "sor-soran" (keris base) to the point of the keris. Like many Mataram kerises. The iron, also embarassingly good.

Overall, the "garap" quality of this keris is excellent. But, I guessed, that this is a "nom-noman" or "nem-neman" keris. Kerises which were made in the Mataram era (1582-1789) and after -- until now, usually called as "keris nem-neman". Please, correct me if I'm mistaken, Mr Hidayat...

Ganjawulung

[Raden Usman Djogja]

dear Gonjo,

the borderline between nem-neman and sepuh may be vary. to people who favor majapahit will consider keris made afterwards as nem-neman. to people who favor mataram will consider mataram kerises as tangguh sepuh.

to me, if and only if, the date of keris made is younger than my birthday will be considered as nem-neman. it relates to my dream. instead of as part of history, I want to watch keris as a part of art which is still being developped by society. Whenever keris becomes a part of history, so does javanese.

anyway, in discussion, I will follow the borderline (nem-neman v. sepuh)accepted by most discussants, "ngeluk practice".

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

...the borderline between nem-neman and sepuh may be vary. to people who favor majapahit will consider keris made afterwards as nem-neman. to people who favor mataram will consider mataram kerises as tangguh sepuh.

to me, if and only if, the date of keris made is younger than my birthday will be considered as nem-neman. it relates to my dream. instead of as part of history, I want to watch keris as a part of art which is still being developped by society. Whenever keris becomes a part of history, so does javanese.

Many thing always debatable in this keris world. Here yes, and There no. It is no wonder. Like Yogyakarta and Surakarta for instant, in the neighbouring city but "opposing each other" in the past, often found contradictory. In Wayang play, Arjuna played by women dancer in Solo, but by men in Yogya. Modern kerises developped very quick and advanced in Solo, but very very slow in Yogya. And in many cultural aspects, you'll see contradictories between Yogya and Solo. It is quite dikotomic. Although only 64 km apart...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks very much for those pics, Ganja.

Sorry it took me a few days to get back to this thread. I was involved in sporting competition over the weekend.

Pengging is a problematical tangguh. I've seen a number of keris that have been identified as Pengging by people whose opinion I must respect, but never two keris the same. The concensus of opinion seems to indicate that what I show below are the dominant characteristics of tangguh Pengging, but getting two knowledgeable people to agree that a particular keris is Pengging seems to be asking for a lot.

Characteristics of a keris of tangguh Pengging:

Tanting:- light

Besi:- fine grained and dense

Pamor:- a rough distinct grain that sometimes runs across the blade rather than parrallel with the edges

Baja:- middle quality, correctly forged and heat-treated.

Pawakan:- the cross section is like rotan; some keris have kruwingan; the wanda (sorry, I cannot give an adequate English word) is a haunted feeling.

Gonjo:-sirah cecak very finely pointed, but sometimes rounded, gulu meled is very long, cross section of gonjo is rounded

Gandhik:- large, well proportioned, but rather short.

Blumbangan:- boto rubuh (fallen brick), deep and wide

Sogokan:- wide, deep, round bottomed and sides undercut

Ada-ada:- small and not to a sharp ridge

Kruwingan:- deep and continuing to the point (where kruwingan exists)

Luk:- very deep , steep curves; these curves are very different to those found in all other keris.

Wadidang:- a long deep curve that starts suddenly.

The three most respected ahli keris whom I have known during my life were all in agreement that these are the characteristics of a Pengging keris, however, getting universal agreement from them that a specific blade was Pengging was an entirely different matter.

Probably the major problem that tangguh presents is that in recent years collectors and dealers have wanted to apply it to classes of keris that it was never intended for, and the result is that now we have a very great deal of confusion.

Personally, I am extremely reluctant to be at all definite in respect of tangguh from any photographs. Even the very best, top quality studio photographs in hardcopy can be misleading, to try to play the tangguh game from internet photos is something that is simply beyond my ability. Yeah, something like an old, degraded Segaluh, I'm prepared to give a qualified opinion on, but most other classifications, I would want the bare blade in my hand before I'd be prepared to venture an opinion.You cannot feel the weight and balance from a photo, and you cannot feel the material. You cannot look at the weld joint where the pamor meets the steel core, and see what sort of welding has been done. Plus 100 other things you cannot do from a photo. As Ganjawulung has already pointed out, you need to handle thousands of blades under respected guidance before you can get a feel for tangguh, you cannot learn it from books. I don't believe it is possible to give positive tangguh opinions from photos, either.And tombak are 100 times more difficult than keris.

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

Which Jawa? Solo?

[ganjawulung]

Disturb you, again and again... With pictures. This supposed (yes, just suppossed) to be Segaluh style, if not the tangguh Segaluh... Please forgive me for disturbing you, again and again...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

Dear Alan, Mans, and All,
Of course, I must be responsible with everything I did in this forum. if I didn't mention the things what you need in this thread (the details of keris, and so on), it was mainly a matter of difficulty to communicate the idea in English, to you all. Although not only that.

I am not joking with tangguh, though I only have a short experience in "loving" the keris world. Because, for me now, tangguh is one of the most important to learn to be able to appreciate the beauty of kerises. Really. What happened if I only know dhapur, and then suddenly faced with ten kerises, all of them bearing dhapur of tilamupih (straight), but in 10 different style, different tangguh?

Actually, the same question emerged in my mind when I was reading the Tammens' book (De Kris, Magic Relic of old Indonesia) a couple of years ago. I said, hey, how come? He presented in 157 pages (from page 114 to 271) pictures (only of course) of 79 kerises, tombaks and wedung -- all with tangguh -- but no details on why he presented this as tangguh this and that...

Some of them, are not correct, although mostly "correct". One of the not correct one is: "keris majapahit" that is actually "old small keris for offering" (which often erroneously called too as 'keris pichit' in Malay). Did I think Tammens was irresponsible?

I never put my belief in reading or hearing anything from everyone -- taken for granted. I always preserve my belief, and then, proof myself which is actually the truth. By experiencing, seeing the real thing. Was Tammens' error destruct my knowledge? Of course not. Tammens is one of my respected "teacher", although only from his book. And also, from my Javanese teacher, to know the nuance behind the objective thing. Not just kerises.

Anyway, I would ask you apology if there was any mistake from me that you considered to be irresponsible and destructive. Of course that was not my intention to. What was in my mind that, this is a "warung kopi", and not an academic forum. Although, of course, I must be responsible in whatever I did in this non academic forum.

Thank you Alan, and all. I agree with you, that it is impossible to estimate accurately the tangguh, in absence the kerises...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Ganja, nothing I have written has been intended as targetted criticism: it has been intended as an attempt to try to bring discussion of tangguh to a level and format that can operate from photographs and written communication, and assist, rather than hinder, the increase of knowledge for people who know almost nothing about tangguh.

Irresponsible and destructive actions can probably only be considered to be this when they are carried out with irresponsible and destructive intent.

Where the intent is absent, although the end result may be destruction, irresponsibility cannot be claimed.

Since in this matter there can be no charge of irresponsibility levelled, there is clearly no call for any apologies to be made.

Now that we all seem to travelling in the same direction, I feel that the way is open to continue to discuss tangguh, but using the approach of qualifying our opinions, rather than phasing them in absolute terms.

Regarding Mr. Tammens and his determinations in respect of tangguh. Some years ago I had a long and informative discussion with a highly respected Dutch keris authority and author about Mr. Tammens and tangguh. I was told that if questioned as to the reasons why a particular keris was this tangguh, or that tangguh, Mr. Tammens would not give an explanation of the indicators that permitted him to classify the keris, but simply say it was this tangguh because it had the characteristics of this tangguh. It would appear that Mr. Tammens' principal teacher was an ex-patriot Javanese gentleman, so perhaps this overaching approach is the way in which Mr. Tammens was taught, rather than the analytical approach, which is the way I was taught. In any case, when I explained and demonstrated to the Dutch author the way in which we can break the characteristics of a blade down into components, and even sub-components, and measure these components against a pre-determined standard it became very clear to him exactly how an ahli keris will determine the tangguh of a blade. I must admit, many of the people I have known who will give an opinion on tangguh do not consciously apply this same analytical approach, but when questioned, they will give answers that can be analytically aligned with the predetermined standards that I was taught.

After Mr. Tammens published his first volume, I heard an amusing story in Solo. It seems that one particular keris orientated Solonese gentleman was so incensed at what he considered to be the inaccurate information in Mr. Tammens' book, that he took it upon himself to visit Mr. Tammens in an attempt to set the record straight. I cannot vouch for this story:- it is Solo gossip, and we know what that can be like.

Ganja, when you say this is not an academic forum, I for one would very much like to believe that you are correct. We have seen the academic approach to this type of subject, and since academia does have a very prominent element of self advancement and reputation building, it can be quite destructive to goodwill and a free exchange of information and ideas. Personally, I would prefer to see us all stay friendly and stupid, rather than enlightened, if enlightenment should come at the cost of goodwill.Yeah, we're all just sitting around in the warung, pretty relaxed, nursing our cups of coffee, and swapping info back and forth. Nothing to get uptight about.But let's try to qualify those opinions about which we cannot be too certain.