Faceted Tips on Chinese Swords? (Split from HOS Catalogue thread)

[tsubame1]

Whew, I belived this topic was deleted and me banned again ...

Originally Posted by josh stout

Thomas Chen's website describes the Tang and Sui swords in Japanese collections as probably from China, but they also could have been polished in a Japanese style.

They still have the original shape and have been preserved extremely well,
near to mint conditions. The "seven stars" one has very light carving on
them showing, among other things, a constellation. Japanese polishing
consists in using abrasive stones that would have deleted the carvings even
in a much lighter polishing then the one needed to change the point
geometry (you have to maintain the plans geometries and proportions so
EVERYTHING on the blade must be polished in a deep restoration.)
Not to say that the japaneses had no reasons in changing that shape.
It has to be noted, too, that the japaneses (that are quiet proud of their
nationality) never denied this provenance even during the mad '30s
in wich nationalism and xenophobia reached the top.

Originally Posted by josh stout

One of the characteristics of Chinese swords is that many styles of many periods can be found coexisting, but they all seem to have lost the faceted tip if they ever had one. Such tips are not in my understanding found on typical swords of the Qing, Ming, Yuan or Song dynasties. They are certainly not visible in art from those periods that I have examined, and they are not found on antique examples done in those styles. (i.e. not necessarily dated to a particular dynasty but in the style of the dynasty).

Checked for Sui and nearby ? I'm sorry to be too specialized in japanese
weaponry to have not other examples to show (in effect I've another one
with mounting but is still treasured in Japan so counts as the other ones..)

Originally Posted by josh stout

I am not at all saying that such tips could not have existed. There are records of many Japanese blades ending up in China, and I have seen pictures of some possible examples that do not show faceted tips. So clearly Japanese blades would have had them, but maybe they lost their faceting?

As per the japanese blades in China losing the yokote :
there are two explanations for this : improper polishing that deleted the
Yokote or simply a slightly different blade geometry called "Shobu Zukuri".
A faceted tip is harder to make. Most of the blades sold to China were
the so-called kazuuchimono, mass produced blades still very effective but
not of the same quality of the good ones. Such inferior blades were
widely made for large armies in japan too during certain periods in which
enormous armies had to be supplied, and a shobuzukuri (without faceted tip) cutting blade was easier to make, hence, I believe, the absence of it on some of the chinese examples. Of course, Shobuzukuri blades were made
even in high quality standards, but you hardly provide potential enemy with
the best of your production.

I would like to be advised by if you find something that can support or
even deny this theory as it is of great importance to me.
A sources showing chinese blade with this type of point would be a
*great* contribution to my studies. I'll make the same, no matter what
comes out, with you.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

Whew, I belived this topic was deleted and me banned again ...

lol. Why would you think you had been banned?

Conscience bothering you, perhaps?

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Conscience bothering you, perhaps?

No, because I've just posted in other two threads...

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

No, because I've just posted in other two threads...

Exactly.

[tsubame1]

Let's try to use the mountings too and other different types of blades to help
the joint-venture in finding chinese-treasured specimen...

Here a Kanto no Tachi late Kofun (before 537. A.D) surely imported from China due to the roundly casted sword pommel. Later japanese ones were innovated into flat plate work, with continental designs stylized the japanese way (Swords of the Samurai, Harris and Ogasawara, British Museum publications ISBN 0 7141 1450 2) :



and here a couple other examples both considered as continental, both early to middle Asuka period , around 540-600 A.D. left kirihazukuri with ridge line and yokote (not visible due to reflection), right hirazukuri with neither ridge line nor yokote (apparently, due to the poor state) with "Fukura", rounded point instead of strainght angled one in all the other examples I've provided. These swords were imported too and were mounted the same way as the others (Sato, "The japanese sword", Kodansha publication ISBN 0 87011 562 6) :



Hope helps.

[josh stout]

Judging from the display on Thomas Chen's website (http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo3.html) The Tang dynasty is the place to look. The angled point with no faceting shown on the Song saber is one I have seen examples of (There is a picture on another page of the same website of what appears to be a Qing copy of Song horse cutting saber with exactly that tip.) The problem is that I can't tell what the line drawing on Thomas Chen's website is based on. If it is based on the examples found in Japan we are back where we started. I found one site (http://kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.e...20Buddhism.pdf) that shows a Tang temple, and tantalizingly there is a deity holding a sword, but the tip is not visible... aargh! If anyone might get to that temple please take a picture. Another place to go would be the Tang dynasty caves listed here (http://ignca.nic.in/ks_19020.htm). I have seen Ming pictures of Tang dynasty personages, but of course the swords they hold are then in the Ming style. In the quick bit of research I have done on this topic I found that the reason Tibetan swords are often cited as being Tang in style is that the Tibetans conquered a large section of China during that time. So perhaps it is not that Tibetan swords are Tang in style but that Tang swords are Tibetan. However, Tibetan swords that I have seen do not have a faceted tip or ridgeline, so the focus might have to be non-Tibetan Tang dynasty swords.
I will continue to look.
Josh

[tsubame1]

Josh, is it possible that there is *no bibliography* about chinese swords
depicting the sword you've found in the site ? I can't believe there is no
printed timeline for swords of such a civilization out there.
Anyway, the link is fruitful. I think the author doesn't base the drawings
on japanese examples. Every other info on that page is clearly of chinese
origin. Take a look to the cross sections of swords and you'll notice the
presence of the one that is interesting us and that have as a natural
byproduct the Yokote. Very interesting the info about the textures
and their timelines too.