Khyber knife

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2005, 09:08 PM

I see what Ariel is saying, a military sabre blade. I think it is important to remember the Russian presence in Afghanistan, long before the unfortunate events of 1979....'The Great Game' as the geo-political situation there was termed by author Peter Hopkirk in his book of the same name. The Russian military shashkas of course carried military form sabre blades.
The reference to one of these dagger/short sword weapons with Bukharen blade was simply to correspond with known recycling/refurbishing of older weapons, possibly damaged or even earlier finds from sites of combat or skirmishes.

It is quite possible that earlier British military sabre blades may have been used for many weapons. This had been a standard practice to use either captured or discarded British blades throughout the 19th century. Actually these blades seem to turn up everywhere! There are many tulwars that are presumably from native cavalry regiments that use M1796 British cavalry blades.It is ironic and a strong testament to the quality of these British blades, considering the scandals of the end of the 18th century pitting the quality of British blades against imported German blades, that they found use in many countries over the next century.

Best regards,
Jim

Conogre · 27th February 2005, 09:57 PM

I haven't got a whole lot to add to the already excellent statements on this old warrior except to add that if you look very carefully at the upper edges of the hilt, they seem to have been re-shaped somewhat on both sides, so some small "ears" can't be entirely ruled out, IMO, although later Russian shaqas seemed to tend away from traditional ears as well.
As to nomenclature, I've also seen the type referred to as a "pathan knife", as well as a karud and choora.
I've also seen some recently that are in the true Salwar sabre size range and being sold as such, but that lack the T-spine and seem to have one or two fullers.
I know that Windlass Steelcrafts in India made a duplicate/replica that was offered in United Cutlery for a while that also lacked the T-spine, but those had no fuller that I was able to discern.
My only guess would be that in areas like this that border a traditional weapon style, local smiths might be influenced by those that they've seen yet modify it according to what their own people are more familiar with?
This one, by the way, is a beautiful piece, in my opinion as I love the "battle trophies" that are on their 2nd and 3rd incarnation yet still remain true user weapons, often in combat.
Mike

ariel · 28th February 2005, 02:12 AM

I see what you mean (reworked pommel).
However, Central Asian shashkas had a very peculiar handle: as opposed to the Ccaucasian pattern, they had a relatively narrow handle near the bolster and a gradual widening toward the ears. Not seen here.
As to Jim's suggestion of the European origin of the blade, what about the Islamic marking?
All in all, we should admit that all our best guesses are just...guesses. It is impossible to be certain about the precise origin/history of a weapon on it's 3rd or 4th re-incarnation. Suffice it to say that this dagger saw a lot in its life and can tell rather brutal stories.

tom hyle · 28th February 2005, 02:51 AM

The nonburred rivets appear to be fairly straightforward repairs to the hilt. Those near the bolster appear to be re-affixing a chipped off piece of horn, and it seems that at least one of them is a nail. The one at the butt may have been added to pull the horn scales together if they were seperating with age-warpage.
The part-length tang is interesting.
There is a style bearing a name like bytzak; a varient of "bichaq" I should think, that is essentially a pesh-kabz with a non-reinforced spine; sometimes grooved, sometimes not. Some look much like this, but I still think this is a reground, probably rehilted sabre blade.

Montino Bourbon · 28th February 2005, 03:50 AM

It seems to me that some of the only blades available in Afghanistan that could be taken down to this form are old bayonet blades; some of them have a T-shaped spine.

Jim McDougall · 28th February 2005, 04:55 AM

While we examine the overall elements of this piece, a question for the metal workers here. The marking on the blade, is it stamped or inscribed ? I am under the impression it was added after the blade was altered and the dagger put together. Obviously if it was originally on the blade, the blade would not be European nor Russian, as Ariel notes.

27th February 2005, 09:08 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,285	I see what Ariel is saying, a military sabre blade. I think it is important to remember the Russian presence in Afghanistan, long before the unfortunate events of 1979....'The Great Game' as the geo-political situation there was termed by author Peter Hopkirk in his book of the same name. The Russian military shashkas of course carried military form sabre blades. The reference to one of these dagger/short sword weapons with Bukharen blade was simply to correspond with known recycling/refurbishing of older weapons, possibly damaged or even earlier finds from sites of combat or skirmishes. It is quite possible that earlier British military sabre blades may have been used for many weapons. This had been a standard practice to use either captured or discarded British blades throughout the 19th century. Actually these blades seem to turn up everywhere! There are many tulwars that are presumably from native cavalry regiments that use M1796 British cavalry blades.It is ironic and a strong testament to the quality of these British blades, considering the scandals of the end of the 18th century pitting the quality of British blades against imported German blades, that they found use in many countries over the next century. Best regards, Jim

27th February 2005, 09:57 PM	#2
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I haven't got a whole lot to add to the already excellent statements on this old warrior except to add that if you look very carefully at the upper edges of the hilt, they seem to have been re-shaped somewhat on both sides, so some small "ears" can't be entirely ruled out, IMO, although later Russian shaqas seemed to tend away from traditional ears as well. As to nomenclature, I've also seen the type referred to as a "pathan knife", as well as a karud and choora. I've also seen some recently that are in the true Salwar sabre size range and being sold as such, but that lack the T-spine and seem to have one or two fullers. I know that Windlass Steelcrafts in India made a duplicate/replica that was offered in United Cutlery for a while that also lacked the T-spine, but those had no fuller that I was able to discern. My only guess would be that in areas like this that border a traditional weapon style, local smiths might be influenced by those that they've seen yet modify it according to what their own people are more familiar with? This one, by the way, is a beautiful piece, in my opinion as I love the "battle trophies" that are on their 2nd and 3rd incarnation yet still remain true user weapons, often in combat. Mike

28th February 2005, 02:12 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I see what you mean (reworked pommel). However, Central Asian shashkas had a very peculiar handle: as opposed to the Ccaucasian pattern, they had a relatively narrow handle near the bolster and a gradual widening toward the ears. Not seen here. As to Jim's suggestion of the European origin of the blade, what about the Islamic marking? All in all, we should admit that all our best guesses are just...guesses. It is impossible to be certain about the precise origin/history of a weapon on it's 3rd or 4th re-incarnation. Suffice it to say that this dagger saw a lot in its life and can tell rather brutal stories.

28th February 2005, 02:51 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The nonburred rivets appear to be fairly straightforward repairs to the hilt. Those near the bolster appear to be re-affixing a chipped off piece of horn, and it seems that at least one of them is a nail. The one at the butt may have been added to pull the horn scales together if they were seperating with age-warpage. The part-length tang is interesting. There is a style bearing a name like bytzak; a varient of "bichaq" I should think, that is essentially a pesh-kabz with a non-reinforced spine; sometimes grooved, sometimes not. Some look much like this, but I still think this is a reground, probably rehilted sabre blade.

28th February 2005, 03:50 AM	#5
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	It seems to me that some of the only blades available in Afghanistan that could be taken down to this form are old bayonet blades; some of them have a T-shaped spine.

28th February 2005, 04:55 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,285	While we examine the overall elements of this piece, a question for the metal workers here. The marking on the blade, is it stamped or inscribed ? I am under the impression it was added after the blade was altered and the dagger put together. Obviously if it was originally on the blade, the blade would not be European nor Russian, as Ariel notes.