Is it Raja Gundala?

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2007, 08:57 PM

I have so far stayed out of this discussion, principally because I cannot see much point to it. However, right now it seems to be going in circles, so I will say a word or two.

When I see a picture of a blade, especially an internet picture, what I see is only form.

I know that I cannot rely on the colour I see; I have no idea as to its weight, its texture, its topographic relief. I can sometimes get some sort of an idea of the quality and style of workmanship, but not often.

From what I can see on the computer screen, all I can really trust is the form of the blade.

The blade that is being discussed appears to be a fairly large blade with a twist pamor and some unusual features .

The pesi is distorted and distressed.

Overall condition appears to be good with some minor distress.

We know that keris culture in Lombok is not so deeply entrenched in formal standards as it is in Jawa and Bali.

We know that the people of Lombok often have a preference for blades which display unusual features.

We know that this twist pamor which on Lombok is called "tambangan badung" is highly favoured by the people of Lombok.

On the face of it, this keris could well be an original Lombok blade.

However.

The point at which the pesi enters the gonjo appears to display the characteristic decline of current era keris with a Madura heritage.

The pesi is extremely distressed, far too much so for normal aging.

We know that the Madura craftsmen use published photos as source material for new creations.

We know that it is easier to sell a keris that is a little bit out of the ordinary in form, irrespective of quality of execution.

In Djelengga we can find pictures of Lombok keris showing similar features to the features of the keris under discussion.

We have been told how and where the keris was sourced, but this must be disregarded for the same reasons that we must disregard all undocumented stories when we undertake an objective assessment.

To sum up:- this is a keris with some unusual features which might be a recent creation, and equally might be an original Lombok keris, but upon the evidence presented which is only a series of internet pictures, I for one am not able to form an opinion either way.

May I suggest that we simply acknowledge that this is a rather unique keris , and even though the workmanship is fairly shoddy, and condition does leave something to be desired, it is worthy of collection if for no other reason than its previously mentioned unique features.

brekele · 4th May 2007, 08:13 AM

Hi Alan, thank you for your fair and educate explanations for this blade's subject.
I appreciate for it. Niiiiiiiiiiiice!

hmmm...Alan? Alan? hmm...

Alan? hhmmmm....
Alan, your name is remind me a western man sitting among those Lombok's
antiques dealers and explain something to them.
Uhh! back again in Bali 12 - 15 years ago.

aaahh, I wish the western men before is the men who just..................
...............................
Uuuuh, Niiiiiiiiiiice

.

Again, Thank you Alan.

BREKELE.

David · 4th May 2007, 01:53 PM

Brekele, i am glad you were able to follow and understand Alan's detailed explanation, especially since it was in essence a longer and more detailed explanation of my own veiwpoint. Your English must be getting better.

BTW, though i didn't say it before, i also think this keris to be "worthy of collection" inspite of it's problems.

brekele · 5th May 2007, 07:39 AM

Your English must be getting better.

Dave, I just hope that my English is getting better, That's why I want always
to look/read at dictionary again. But honestly is hard. Because my head
full/mix up with 3 other languages beside Indonesian and Jawa languages.
And now Deutsch is even harder than English for me, 5 years I learn but
come up nothing.

Dave, thank you for hang out with me in last moment in this subject.
I wish someday we can met somewhere on beautiful Lombok Island, Bali or
Jawa .Wherever you want to chose those 3 Islands, and talk about

ROCK N' KRIS

and drink coconut's water.

Again, Thank you Dave.
BREKELE

David · 5th May 2007, 08:16 AM

Well, i am not convinced about the coconut water part, but it certainly is my dream to visit those islands for sure!

I have heard that English is the hardest language to learn for those not raised speaking it so i have much respect for your efforts. I am glad this forum has helped you get better at it.

Rick · 7th May 2007, 07:24 PM

In this blade I see a bearded man wearing a robe and a head cloth; he is in a position of bowing respectfully; his shadow before him , he is outlined in bright pamor on the upper right hand side of the blade.

This is fun !

Alam Shah · 8th May 2007, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

In this blade I see a bearded man wearing a robe and a head cloth; he is in a position of bowing respectfully; his shadow before him , he is outlined in bright pamor on the upper right hand side of the blade.

This is fun !

Hmmm... I see a woman bending over wearing a head-dress (possibly Minang style) handling a baby, nappy change, perhaps... hmmm...

7th May 2007, 07:24 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	In this blade I see a bearded man wearing a robe and a head cloth; he is in a position of bowing respectfully; his shadow before him , he is outlined in bright pamor on the upper right hand side of the blade. This is fun ! Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 7th May 2007 at 09:17 PM. Reason: clarity

3rd May 2007, 08:57 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I have so far stayed out of this discussion, principally because I cannot see much point to it. However, right now it seems to be going in circles, so I will say a word or two. When I see a picture of a blade, especially an internet picture, what I see is only form. I know that I cannot rely on the colour I see; I have no idea as to its weight, its texture, its topographic relief. I can sometimes get some sort of an idea of the quality and style of workmanship, but not often. From what I can see on the computer screen, all I can really trust is the form of the blade. The blade that is being discussed appears to be a fairly large blade with a twist pamor and some unusual features . The pesi is distorted and distressed. Overall condition appears to be good with some minor distress. We know that keris culture in Lombok is not so deeply entrenched in formal standards as it is in Jawa and Bali. We know that the people of Lombok often have a preference for blades which display unusual features. We know that this twist pamor which on Lombok is called "tambangan badung" is highly favoured by the people of Lombok. On the face of it, this keris could well be an original Lombok blade. However. The point at which the pesi enters the gonjo appears to display the characteristic decline of current era keris with a Madura heritage. The pesi is extremely distressed, far too much so for normal aging. We know that the Madura craftsmen use published photos as source material for new creations. We know that it is easier to sell a keris that is a little bit out of the ordinary in form, irrespective of quality of execution. In Djelengga we can find pictures of Lombok keris showing similar features to the features of the keris under discussion. We have been told how and where the keris was sourced, but this must be disregarded for the same reasons that we must disregard all undocumented stories when we undertake an objective assessment. To sum up:- this is a keris with some unusual features which might be a recent creation, and equally might be an original Lombok keris, but upon the evidence presented which is only a series of internet pictures, I for one am not able to form an opinion either way. May I suggest that we simply acknowledge that this is a rather unique keris , and even though the workmanship is fairly shoddy, and condition does leave something to be desired, it is worthy of collection if for no other reason than its previously mentioned unique features.

4th May 2007, 08:13 AM	#2
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Hi Alan, thank you for your fair and educate explanations for this blade's subject. I appreciate for it. Niiiiiiiiiiiice! hmmm...Alan? Alan? hmm... Alan? hhmmmm.... Alan, your name is remind me a western man sitting among those Lombok's antiques dealers and explain something to them. Uhh! back again in Bali 12 - 15 years ago. aaahh, I wish the western men before is the men who just.................. ............................... Uuuuh, Niiiiiiiiiiice . Again, Thank you Alan. BREKELE.

4th May 2007, 01:53 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Brekele, i am glad you were able to follow and understand Alan's detailed explanation, especially since it was in essence a longer and more detailed explanation of my own veiwpoint. Your English must be getting better. BTW, though i didn't say it before, i also think this keris to be "worthy of collection" inspite of it's problems.

5th May 2007, 07:39 AM	#4
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Your English must be getting better. Dave, I just hope that my English is getting better, That's why I want always to look/read at dictionary again. But honestly is hard. Because my head full/mix up with 3 other languages beside Indonesian and Jawa languages. And now Deutsch is even harder than English for me, 5 years I learn but come up nothing. Dave, thank you for hang out with me in last moment in this subject. I wish someday we can met somewhere on beautiful Lombok Island, Bali or Jawa .Wherever you want to chose those 3 Islands, and talk about ROCK N' KRIS and drink coconut's water. Again, Thank you Dave. BREKELE

5th May 2007, 08:16 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Well, i am not convinced about the coconut water part, but it certainly is my dream to visit those islands for sure! I have heard that English is the hardest language to learn for those not raised speaking it so i have much respect for your efforts. I am glad this forum has helped you get better at it.