Beautiful Pendray knife as well as the price!!

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2007, 09:17 AM

Yes Lew, I tend to agree with you.

After all, this is a forum for discussion of ethnographic weaponry, not custom knives.

But just as a matter of interest, what do you think the capital investment might be in a trip hammer?

ariel · 3rd May 2007, 12:44 PM

My comments are not meant to insult or belittle modern bladesmiths or other artisans involved in making replicas, modern renditions, old style etc, etc knives and swords.
I am just trying to clarify my purely personal reasons for not collecting them.
For me, history behind the object is of paramount importance. Any modern creation, no matter how technically advanced or artistic, lacks the ingredient of authenticity. These are not for me.
Others admire technical superiority of modern blades and the variety of exotic materials unavailable to old masters. They are the market that decides how much to pay for a contemporary sword.
The pricing for both ends of the spectrum is purely artificial and equally arbitrary. Any knifemaker, like any artisan, can charge whatever price he wishes. The market will decide. After all, what is the rational explanation for $3,000 - $15,000 price tags on Fiegel's Tulwars? $ 100,000 for a Katana? they have no practical contemporary value. Why is Kilij costing on the average twice as much as Shamshir? Who said that a good Khanjarli should command 5 times as much as Bichwa? The price is dictated not by the number of hours or cost of equipment, but by the collectors' "fashion of the day". Moro today, Chechnya tomorrow, Zaza Revishvili in 100 years.

Lew · 3rd May 2007, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Lew, I tend to agree with you.

After all, this is a forum for discussion of ethnographic weaponry, not custom knives.

But just as a matter of interest, what do you think the capital investment might be in a trip hammer?

A.G.

A new 100lb trip hammer will cost about $5000 but if you do some looking you can buy an older used one for about half.

Lew

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2007, 09:23 PM

Thanks Lew.

And that is only part of the capital investment required to produce a finely crafted custom knife to the standards demanded by today's extremely discerning buyers.

The makers I have known over the years have never achieved anything like the $35 PH that you consider to be reasonable remuneration for this type of work, and they have mostly regarded their investment in the equipment required to produce fine knives to be in the nature of "hobby costs".

However, if somebody wants to make a living from his work, he must factor in his capital costs, depreciation on his plant and equipment, his insurance costs, he must make provision for superannuation, and if he wants a holiday every year, or to cover days when he cannot work because of illness, he must factor allowances for that in too.Then there is the cost of material, and any other unmentioned overheads.

Ultimately the marketplace decides the price of a product. Makers like the fellow who you consider charged you too much for his product may not be able to compete. However, if that maker was doing something for which there was a demand, and which was unique, then possibly he could continue to charge prices which to you appeared to be unreasonable.

My personal position is that modern custom knife work, for the most part leaves me cold. Don't like it at all. I much prefer older pieces, or pieces with an ethnic flavour. For instance, I have a very soft spot for puukos.

But the only way we can truly determine in an objective way if any item is over priced is by analysis of the production of the item concerned.

Of course, the marketplace is not much into objective production analysis, but it is very sensitive to price, so what we usually finish up with is the bare minimum standard that satisfies the requirement.

Tim Simmons · 3rd May 2007, 09:55 PM

Talking about the market is a tricky thing. Demand can be governed by a taste or perception rather than enquiry and investigation, largely depending on how intellegent the money is

Gt Obach · 4th May 2007, 12:06 AM

i remain somewhere in the middle ...liking both old and new blades.... ... after making a few myself.. i've a healthy respect for the smiths who do this for a living... i do think that there are some people doing very nicely in the biz of knives... but probably not a good as some of the antique dealers.. (maybe)

i've seen some 50lbs lil giant hammer go for 2000.... but the 30 ton hydraulic press seems to be more fashionable now a days..

all that being said... i do find pendray's blades abit pricey, but apparently he's got the name to sell it

i do like this kard he made... ( except the mokume pommel

)
http://customknifegallery.com/pendray1f.html

G

A. G. Maisey · 4th May 2007, 09:44 PM

Yeah, spot on, Tim.

It pretty much depends on what drives a person to purchase the knife.

Like a car:- do you buy the Ferrari to cruise the beaches, or the Corolla to get you from point A to point B cheaply and reliably?

Or maybe you've got one of each in the garage.

Personally, I see modern custom knives as collectables, just as are jambiyas, keris, pesh kabz and so on.

I prefer the ethnic stuff; others prefer the work of modern custom makers.

Where it can get a bit unstable is where you buy a custom maker's knife to do the job of a tool; if that maker has produced what he sees as a collectable, it gets a bit hard to justify big dollars for what the buyer sees as a tool.

And yes, that is a seriously nice kard.

tsubame1 · 5th May 2007, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

( except the mokume pommel

)

You know... Mokume is trendy. Even engagement and marriage rings made
that way. My wife would have trow such rings out of the window...

But they are quiet well suited for Habaki IMHO.

@ Ariel. The link provided shows an evidently chep work, but the quality of
the mounting that started this thread is evidently much better too.
I can't say if enough to justify thousand of dollars, but if the stones are ruby
(obviously not the pidgeon-blood burmese ones...) the price increase.
To put an 8K U$ mounting on a 800 U$ blade is what, in my way to appreciate
weapons, the real nonsense...

3rd May 2007, 09:17 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes Lew, I tend to agree with you. After all, this is a forum for discussion of ethnographic weaponry, not custom knives. But just as a matter of interest, what do you think the capital investment might be in a trip hammer?

3rd May 2007, 12:44 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My comments are not meant to insult or belittle modern bladesmiths or other artisans involved in making replicas, modern renditions, old style etc, etc knives and swords. I am just trying to clarify my purely personal reasons for not collecting them. For me, history behind the object is of paramount importance. Any modern creation, no matter how technically advanced or artistic, lacks the ingredient of authenticity. These are not for me. Others admire technical superiority of modern blades and the variety of exotic materials unavailable to old masters. They are the market that decides how much to pay for a contemporary sword. The pricing for both ends of the spectrum is purely artificial and equally arbitrary. Any knifemaker, like any artisan, can charge whatever price he wishes. The market will decide. After all, what is the rational explanation for $3,000 - $15,000 price tags on Fiegel's Tulwars? $ 100,000 for a Katana? they have no practical contemporary value. Why is Kilij costing on the average twice as much as Shamshir? Who said that a good Khanjarli should command 5 times as much as Bichwa? The price is dictated not by the number of hours or cost of equipment, but by the collectors' "fashion of the day". Moro today, Chechnya tomorrow, Zaza Revishvili in 100 years.

3rd May 2007, 09:23 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks Lew. And that is only part of the capital investment required to produce a finely crafted custom knife to the standards demanded by today's extremely discerning buyers. The makers I have known over the years have never achieved anything like the $35 PH that you consider to be reasonable remuneration for this type of work, and they have mostly regarded their investment in the equipment required to produce fine knives to be in the nature of "hobby costs". However, if somebody wants to make a living from his work, he must factor in his capital costs, depreciation on his plant and equipment, his insurance costs, he must make provision for superannuation, and if he wants a holiday every year, or to cover days when he cannot work because of illness, he must factor allowances for that in too.Then there is the cost of material, and any other unmentioned overheads. Ultimately the marketplace decides the price of a product. Makers like the fellow who you consider charged you too much for his product may not be able to compete. However, if that maker was doing something for which there was a demand, and which was unique, then possibly he could continue to charge prices which to you appeared to be unreasonable. My personal position is that modern custom knife work, for the most part leaves me cold. Don't like it at all. I much prefer older pieces, or pieces with an ethnic flavour. For instance, I have a very soft spot for puukos. But the only way we can truly determine in an objective way if any item is over priced is by analysis of the production of the item concerned. Of course, the marketplace is not much into objective production analysis, but it is very sensitive to price, so what we usually finish up with is the bare minimum standard that satisfies the requirement.

3rd May 2007, 09:55 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Talking about the market is a tricky thing. Demand can be governed by a taste or perception rather than enquiry and investigation, largely depending on how intellegent the money is

4th May 2007, 12:06 AM	#6
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	i remain somewhere in the middle ...liking both old and new blades.... ... after making a few myself.. i've a healthy respect for the smiths who do this for a living... i do think that there are some people doing very nicely in the biz of knives... but probably not a good as some of the antique dealers.. (maybe) i've seen some 50lbs lil giant hammer go for 2000.... but the 30 ton hydraulic press seems to be more fashionable now a days.. all that being said... i do find pendray's blades abit pricey, but apparently he's got the name to sell it i do like this kard he made... ( except the mokume pommel ) http://customknifegallery.com/pendray1f.html G

4th May 2007, 09:44 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yeah, spot on, Tim. It pretty much depends on what drives a person to purchase the knife. Like a car:- do you buy the Ferrari to cruise the beaches, or the Corolla to get you from point A to point B cheaply and reliably? Or maybe you've got one of each in the garage. Personally, I see modern custom knives as collectables, just as are jambiyas, keris, pesh kabz and so on. I prefer the ethnic stuff; others prefer the work of modern custom makers. Where it can get a bit unstable is where you buy a custom maker's knife to do the job of a tool; if that maker has produced what he sees as a collectable, it gets a bit hard to justify big dollars for what the buyer sees as a tool. And yes, that is a seriously nice kard.