Is it Raja Gundala?

A. G. Maisey · 29th April 2007, 10:24 PM

Lombok was settled by various groups of people, from various different places.

The original people in Lombok are the Sasaks, who are Muslim, and their keris forms reflect a Javanese origin.

Bali had colonies on and control of Lombok for extended periods of time, and the people of Balinese origin who lived (and live ) in Lombok use keris forms that reflect their origins.

Bugis keris forms are also found in Lombok , and there are groups of people in Lombok who identify themselves as of Bugis origin.

In fact, there is no distinctive "Lombok" style of keris.However, the keris styles favoured by the Sasak people often tend to be extreme. The ricikan will be emphasised by high relief work, and in other than very high quality blades, it would be judged to be crude and "kasar" by traditional Javanese or Balinese standards. More like folk art than high art.

Keris blade production had ceased in Lombok prior to the end of the 19th century.

Yes, many old keris in Lombok would have originally come from Jawa, and this is true of old keris distributed throughout South East Asia. Back in Majapahit times, and through to probably as late as the end of the 18th century, Jawa exported blades of keris, swords, spears all over South East Asia, and even as far afield as Sri Lanka, and Southern India.

However, strictly, it is incorrect to describe a blade in the context of one culture, in this case Lombok, in terms constructed to apply to a blade in a different cultural context. For one thing, it is meaningless. In a Javanese blade the words used to describe the blade have a meaning to a Javanese person. They may have no meaning, or a different meaning, in a different language.

Djelenga uses as a synonym of "dhapur" the words "bentuk" which means "shape" in Indonesian, and "angun-angunan" which is a word in Javanese, but does not make sense when used as Djelenga uses it, so obviously has a different meaning in Lombok.Since Djelenga is from Lombok, I believe he would know the correct terms to use for a Lombok keris, and he seems to demonstrate that "dhapur" is not to be used instead of "bentuk" or "angun-angunan".

In 1994 the book "Keris (di) Lombok" was written by Ir. H. Lalu Djelenga. It was sponsored by Taman Mini Indonesia in Jakarta, and was never produced commercially but given as a souvenir to certain select people.I have a photo-copy of this book.

In 2000 Lalu Djelenga released an expanded and updated version of the 1994 book. This was a small local printing and was not ---as far as I know--- distributed through the book-seller distribution network. To obtain a copy it was a matter of who you knew. It took me years to get hold of a copy of this book.My most recent information is that stocks of this book are now exhausted.

Alam Shah · 30th April 2007, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... In 2000 Lalu Djelenga released an expanded and updated version of the 1994 book. This was a small local printing and was not ---as far as I know--- distributed through the book-seller distribution network. To obtain a copy it was a matter of who you knew. It took me years to get hold of a copy of this book.My most recent information is that stocks of this book are now exhausted.

I'm still looking, for about 2 years now.

Mick · 30th April 2007, 03:10 PM

There is one other keris book which is probably even harder to get then Djelenga's. That is "Keris Bali" by I B. Dibia. The content and material may not be as good as Djelenga's, but it is writen in Bahasa. English and French. Alas I only have a photocopy of this one just as I have of the 1993 Djelenga book.

The published (2000) edition of Djelenga's is much more complete than the original, but it uses what looks to be color xerox's as the basis for the photos. A trait which I wish they had gone a step beyond.

Haryono Haryoguritno's big book is the highest quality production that I have ever heard of in regard to the keris. It might even exceed the quality of the production on the "Kraton Surakarta" to a small degree.

Alam Shah · 30th April 2007, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick

... Haryono Haryoguritno's big book is the highest quality production that I have ever heard of in regard to the keris. It might even exceed the quality of the production on the "Kraton Surakarta" to a small degree.

Paper and printing quality are similar, but Haryono's book have better photography, graphics and artwork.

Marcokeris · 30th April 2007, 03:57 PM

I'm not shure, but mybe is possible to order Dibia's "Keris Bali" in the little bookshop "Ganesha" in Ubud (Bali)
Look at " www.ganeshabookbali.com "

Marcokeris · 30th April 2007, 04:01 PM

Sorry: " www.ganeshabooksbali.com"

Mick · 30th April 2007, 04:03 PM

Marcokeris

I can't get that page to come up in my explorer program.

Scratch this. I got it after a couple of tries.

Thanks

Mick

Just placed an order. We'll see if is in stock when they reply.

Thanks again.

Mick

Just got an out of stock message.

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2007, 12:08 AM

Yeah Mick, you're right:- the quality of production of Keris Lombok is less than good. However, it was obviously done on a shoe-string budget, and there is some good info in it. All things considered I personally am not prepared to criticise Keris Lombok too severely for failing to be an artwork in itself.

Pangeran Datu · 1st May 2007, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

......
However, strictly, it is incorrect to describe a blade in the context of one culture, in this case Lombok, in terms constructed to apply to a blade in a different cultural context. For one thing, it is meaningless. In a Javanese blade the words used to describe the blade have a meaning to a Javanese person. They may have no meaning, or a different meaning, in a different language.......

It depends.
If, say, 'Culture B' originally produced blades in strict accordance with the Pakem/protocol of 'Culture A' and adopted it as their own, then, no problem. One can use the Pakem of 'Culture A' on blades made by 'Culture B', as Pakem A will be identical to Pakem B
If, however, through time, either Pakem A, or Pakem B, or both evolve or change altogether, with respect to one another, then we strike trouble.
One first needs to be able to decide which Pakem has changed (or, indeed, if BOTH have changed). Then one may be able to proceed with some 'historical forensics' to determine the current relativity of one Pakem to the other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

......
Djelenga uses as a synonym of "dhapur" the words "bentuk" which means "shape" in Indonesian, and "angun-angunan" which is a word in Javanese, but does not make sense when used as Djelenga uses it, so obviously has a different meaning in Lombok.Since Djelenga is from Lombok, I believe he would know the correct terms to use for a Lombok keris, and he seems to demonstrate that "dhapur" is not to be used instead of "bentuk" or "angun-angunan".....

My understanding of the ancient (in your case, Jawa Kuna?) meanings:

Dapur = group/family/tree
Bentuk = shape/form/appearance
Angun-angunan = pattern/template

Given the ancients' pliant nature and penchant for symbolism , I can understand how the above terms may be used interchangeably for general classification (cf. biological taxonomy).

Cheers.

brekele · 1st May 2007, 08:02 AM

Uhh! The subject is getting hot and harder for me

I better listen explanations from those Docters Keris.

But Dave, the blade I posted is not recently maduranese creation. (

)
Common Dave!
But it's oke, I guess you and me don't have good eyes like Super(p)man.

Thanks Marcokeris for book's shop informations.
Those books are nice but those CDs are made me skyping a friend in Bali.

David · 1st May 2007, 01:48 PM

Thanks Alan, for this post on language as applied to the keris. It is really a facinating subject. I tend to agree with you that English, when possible, is a better choice in this context, though i actually prefer "hilt" to "handle".

Still, i am interested in learning traditional terminology whenever possible so i don't mind when people use such terms as long as they are willing to explain them. But there does seem to be a general "lazy" acceptance among keris collectors to default to Javanese terminology regardless of the origin of the blade. I agree that this is inappropriate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brekele

But Dave, the blade I posted is not recently maduranese creation. (

)

Perhaps, Brek, you can share with us exactly where and when you believe this blade originates. Frankly the eyes of a "superman" has very little to do with such opinions. Photographs are never a very good way to judge a keris and people can be very easily fooled by them, even Superman

. Also, smiths in Madura have become quite expert not only at mimicing other styles and time periods of keris making, but have great skill at making blades look old. I am basing my suspicions on this knowledge and the feeling that this keris doesn't look quite right to me in material and finish to be from Bali or Lombok. I could very easily be wrong about this, as there are too many factors out of hand and i am simply unable to judge accurately from an internet photo. But i am sincerely interested in hearing why you are so sure my suspicions are incorrect. How old do you believe this keris is and where was it forged?

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2007, 11:49 PM

Yeah, "hilt" is possibly more correct than "handle", when used in connection with an edged weapon. I guess you could probably put my preference for "handle" down to a bit of reverse snobbery.

David · 2nd May 2007, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yeah, "hilt" is possibly more correct than "handle", when used in connection with an edged weapon. I guess you could probably put my preference for "handle" down to a bit of reverse snobbery.

brekele · 2nd May 2007, 12:58 PM

Dave, yes of course i can share with you about where and when i believed this blade is ASLIES (ASLIES=ASLI+YES). Sorry for using my own word, because your word ORIGINATES wasn't in dictionary.

Friend of mine brought this blade by the time Lombok's coffee morning is not finish yet. The blade was dirty, first exprescion in head was stranged about this blade and then suspicion for few seconds. About 2 minits later my feeling was changed and starting to belived that the blade is old (80%).
And then someone clean that blade.
After cleaned then of course i believed the blade is old.
Dave, i looked again...from Pasikutan, i guess this blade is tangguh nom-noman
(Bali).
Also according to blade's material + feeling of my NEW KNOWLEDGE about keris.
(Finally, surely answer is came out by other keris forum in Indonesia).

Dave, i knew some of keris dealers from Madura based in my hometown Surabaya (Jawa). I hang out with them and learn.
So, I knew their blades Dave.
Many blades are good too (hi...just my taste).

BTW, Dave....honestly i like to read words of those doctors keris .
but you just broke them up

Ya, It's oke. I knew you are the bos in your own forum beside Rick.

Megantoro · 10th May 2007, 05:33 AM

Ra mudgengke

David · 10th May 2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megantoro

Ra mudgengke

Welcome Megantoro. This is an English language forum. Could you please translate this?

brekele · 11th May 2007, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Welcome Megantoro. This is an English language forum. Could you please translate this?

Dave, I guess this words (ra mudgengke) came from words (ora mudeng) it means not clear and confused in Javanese languages, but ra mudgengke it could be also the Central Javanese languages for young people (slang) for something which is not in the mood for their group or Gangster.
I try to help you but if it is wrong than I appologise for it.
The guy might have another meaning for it.

brekele · 26th May 2007, 10:15 AM

Hi Guys, I would like to ask you something.
Do you see PICTURES on the blade? Because I saw some pictures. Kind of human sitting.
Is it Raja Gundala

?

Thanks
bre

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2007, 09:05 AM

With respect Pangeran Datu, I disagree with you.

You have put forward a hypothetical argument based in logic, and from a purely logical basis, I am not able to disagree with you.But that logic is hypothetical, and measured against the reality of the keris in differing cultural contexts, it does not stand.

Even within Jawa there is disagreement as to the what the exact features are which should be present for a keris to conform to a particular dhapur, even within Jawa, it is safer to use the features contained in a keris to describe that keris, rather than to use a dhapur designation.Unless, of course, you are able to quote the pakem, thus you would describe the form as, for instance:- "sinom robyong, in accordance with (whatever) pakem".

When we move into a different culture, and we look at a keris which is not a Javanese keris, but that keris contains features that are also able to be found in a Javanese keris, then it is clearly erroneous to describe that keris from Sulawesi, or Sumatra, or Lombok in terms applicable to a Javanese keris. It is not a Javanese keris, thus it cannot be described as one. The names of the various ricikan in keris from various areas are often different from the names used in Jawa for those ricikan. Similarly, the names used to describe the keris form are often different from the name for a Javanese keris containing the same features, but with different names.The names of the various features , or ricikan, in a keris blade have everyday meanings, for instance, a "sogokan" is a long stick that you push things with, a "blumbangan" is a pond, and so on. These names of the keris features make sense to a Javanese person because he can see the connection between the name of the feature, and that thing in the real world. However, to somebody in another culture, using a different language, the Javanese names of the features could well make about as much sense as they do to a native English speaker. Thus, you will find that although the features in keris blades across several cultures could all be the same, the names of those features will sometimes vary.As the names of the features (ricikan) vary, so do the names of the forms (dhapur) carrying those features, and the word used in a local language to describe the form itself is no longer a Javanese word, but a word that is intelligible to the local user of that word.Thus, Lalu Djelengga, being from Lombok, uses (I guess) a Sasak word instead of Indonesian (bentuk) or Javanese (dhapur) when he is referring to keris from Lombok.

In respect of word meanings.

In Modern Javanese "dhapur" means "shape, form, design".

The word "dapur" does not exist in Javanese, it is an Indonesian word that means "kitchen".

The word "bentuk" is an Indonesian word that means "shape, form"; this word does not exist in Javanese.

The word "angun-angunan" is a problem. I really do not understand this word, so I am assuming it is a Sasak word which is a synonym of the Indonesian "bentuk" and the Javanese "dhapur", which is the context in which Djelengga has supplied it. In Javanese "angun", or "angun-angun" can mean a bull or it can mean wild; it is not a word found in Indonesian. Angun, angun-angun, and angun-angunan appear not to exist in Old Javanese.

I do not believe that we have any need to go back to olden times to understand what a modern author wrote in the 20th or 21st century. Lalu Djelengga gave us a choice of three words, all appearing to mean the same thing:- "bentuk" if we are speaking Indonesian, "dhapur" if we are speaking Javanese, or "angun-angunan" if we are speaking Sasak ( I assume). What he actually presents is a heading to a series of matrices which form a pakem; this heading reads:- NAMA DAN UNSUR CIRI (RICIKAN) BENTUK/ANGUN-ANGUNAN (DHAPUR).

Within the pakem supplied by Djelengga the keris form "sinom robyong" does not exist; the form "sinom" does, but not "sinom robyong".

Personally, I try to steer away from using Javanese words when I am talking about keris in English. Yes, I know, it can be very impressive to throw a whole heap of dhapurs and condong-leles and jejerans into one's discussion, if for no other reason than to remind people of one's erudition, but why use a Javanese word when there is a perfectly good English word, meaning the same thing, that everybody will understand without thinking? Why not use "form" instead of dhapur? Why not use "handle" instead of "ukiran" or "jejeran"?

I think I could precis my position on this matter by saying that I am of the opinion that we should try to maintain a degree of consistency in keris terminology which reflects the area of origin of the keris concerned, thus we would use Javanese terms for a Javanese keris, Sasak terms for a Lombok keris, and so on. Alternatively, we use English words which clearly convey our meaning to English speakers, and only use a Javanese/Balinese/Sasak word where we do not have an English word available. The only keris word I can think of that I do not have an English word available for is "gonjo".

30th April 2007, 03:10 PM	#3
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Keris books There is one other keris book which is probably even harder to get then Djelenga's. That is "Keris Bali" by I B. Dibia. The content and material may not be as good as Djelenga's, but it is writen in Bahasa. English and French. Alas I only have a photocopy of this one just as I have of the 1993 Djelenga book. The published (2000) edition of Djelenga's is much more complete than the original, but it uses what looks to be color xerox's as the basis for the photos. A trait which I wish they had gone a step beyond. Haryono Haryoguritno's big book is the highest quality production that I have ever heard of in regard to the keris. It might even exceed the quality of the production on the "Kraton Surakarta" to a small degree.

30th April 2007, 04:03 PM	#7
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Marcokeris I can't get that page to come up in my explorer program. Scratch this. I got it after a couple of tries. Thanks Mick Just placed an order. We'll see if is in stock when they reply. Thanks again. Mick Just got an out of stock message. Last edited by Mick; 1st May 2007 at 01:37 PM.

2nd May 2007, 12:58 PM	#14
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Dave, yes of course i can share with you about where and when i believed this blade is ASLIES (ASLIES=ASLI+YES). Sorry for using my own word, because your word ORIGINATES wasn't in dictionary. Friend of mine brought this blade by the time Lombok's coffee morning is not finish yet. The blade was dirty, first exprescion in head was stranged about this blade and then suspicion for few seconds. About 2 minits later my feeling was changed and starting to belived that the blade is old (80%). And then someone clean that blade. After cleaned then of course i believed the blade is old. Dave, i looked again...from Pasikutan, i guess this blade is tangguh nom-noman (Bali). Also according to blade's material + feeling of my NEW KNOWLEDGE about keris. (Finally, surely answer is came out by other keris forum in Indonesia). Dave, i knew some of keris dealers from Madura based in my hometown Surabaya (Jawa). I hang out with them and learn. So, I knew their blades Dave. Many blades are good too (hi...just my taste). BTW, Dave....honestly i like to read words of those doctors keris . but you just broke them up Ya, It's oke. I knew you are the bos in your own forum beside Rick. Last edited by brekele; 2nd May 2007 at 01:33 PM.

26th May 2007, 10:15 AM	#18
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Is it Raja Gundala? Hi Guys, I would like to ask you something. Do you see PICTURES on the blade? Because I saw some pictures. Kind of human sitting. Is it Raja Gundala ? Thanks bre Attached Images

29th April 2007, 10:24 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Lombok was settled by various groups of people, from various different places. The original people in Lombok are the Sasaks, who are Muslim, and their keris forms reflect a Javanese origin. Bali had colonies on and control of Lombok for extended periods of time, and the people of Balinese origin who lived (and live ) in Lombok use keris forms that reflect their origins. Bugis keris forms are also found in Lombok , and there are groups of people in Lombok who identify themselves as of Bugis origin. In fact, there is no distinctive "Lombok" style of keris.However, the keris styles favoured by the Sasak people often tend to be extreme. The ricikan will be emphasised by high relief work, and in other than very high quality blades, it would be judged to be crude and "kasar" by traditional Javanese or Balinese standards. More like folk art than high art. Keris blade production had ceased in Lombok prior to the end of the 19th century. Yes, many old keris in Lombok would have originally come from Jawa, and this is true of old keris distributed throughout South East Asia. Back in Majapahit times, and through to probably as late as the end of the 18th century, Jawa exported blades of keris, swords, spears all over South East Asia, and even as far afield as Sri Lanka, and Southern India. However, strictly, it is incorrect to describe a blade in the context of one culture, in this case Lombok, in terms constructed to apply to a blade in a different cultural context. For one thing, it is meaningless. In a Javanese blade the words used to describe the blade have a meaning to a Javanese person. They may have no meaning, or a different meaning, in a different language. Djelenga uses as a synonym of "dhapur" the words "bentuk" which means "shape" in Indonesian, and "angun-angunan" which is a word in Javanese, but does not make sense when used as Djelenga uses it, so obviously has a different meaning in Lombok.Since Djelenga is from Lombok, I believe he would know the correct terms to use for a Lombok keris, and he seems to demonstrate that "dhapur" is not to be used instead of "bentuk" or "angun-angunan". In 1994 the book "Keris (di) Lombok" was written by Ir. H. Lalu Djelenga. It was sponsored by Taman Mini Indonesia in Jakarta, and was never produced commercially but given as a souvenir to certain select people.I have a photo-copy of this book. In 2000 Lalu Djelenga released an expanded and updated version of the 1994 book. This was a small local printing and was not ---as far as I know--- distributed through the book-seller distribution network. To obtain a copy it was a matter of who you knew. It took me years to get hold of a copy of this book.My most recent information is that stocks of this book are now exhausted.

30th April 2007, 03:57 PM	#5
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I'm not shure, but mybe is possible to order Dibia's "Keris Bali" in the little bookshop "Ganesha" in Ubud (Bali) Look at " www.ganeshabookbali.com "

30th April 2007, 04:01 PM	#6
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Sorry: " www.ganeshabooksbali.com"

1st May 2007, 12:08 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Yeah Mick, you're right:- the quality of production of Keris Lombok is less than good. However, it was obviously done on a shoe-string budget, and there is some good info in it. All things considered I personally am not prepared to criticise Keris Lombok too severely for failing to be an artwork in itself.

1st May 2007, 08:02 AM	#10
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Uhh! The subject is getting hot and harder for me I better listen explanations from those Docters Keris. But Dave, the blade I posted is not recently maduranese creation. ( ) Common Dave! But it's oke, I guess you and me don't have good eyes like Super(p)man. Thanks Marcokeris for book's shop informations. Those books are nice but those CDs are made me skyping a friend in Bali.

1st May 2007, 11:49 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Yeah, "hilt" is possibly more correct than "handle", when used in connection with an edged weapon. I guess you could probably put my preference for "handle" down to a bit of reverse snobbery.

10th May 2007, 05:33 AM	#15
Megantoro Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 2	Ra mudgengke

1st May 2007, 09:05 AM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	With respect Pangeran Datu, I disagree with you. You have put forward a hypothetical argument based in logic, and from a purely logical basis, I am not able to disagree with you.But that logic is hypothetical, and measured against the reality of the keris in differing cultural contexts, it does not stand. Even within Jawa there is disagreement as to the what the exact features are which should be present for a keris to conform to a particular dhapur, even within Jawa, it is safer to use the features contained in a keris to describe that keris, rather than to use a dhapur designation.Unless, of course, you are able to quote the pakem, thus you would describe the form as, for instance:- "sinom robyong, in accordance with (whatever) pakem". When we move into a different culture, and we look at a keris which is not a Javanese keris, but that keris contains features that are also able to be found in a Javanese keris, then it is clearly erroneous to describe that keris from Sulawesi, or Sumatra, or Lombok in terms applicable to a Javanese keris. It is not a Javanese keris, thus it cannot be described as one. The names of the various ricikan in keris from various areas are often different from the names used in Jawa for those ricikan. Similarly, the names used to describe the keris form are often different from the name for a Javanese keris containing the same features, but with different names.The names of the various features , or ricikan, in a keris blade have everyday meanings, for instance, a "sogokan" is a long stick that you push things with, a "blumbangan" is a pond, and so on. These names of the keris features make sense to a Javanese person because he can see the connection between the name of the feature, and that thing in the real world. However, to somebody in another culture, using a different language, the Javanese names of the features could well make about as much sense as they do to a native English speaker. Thus, you will find that although the features in keris blades across several cultures could all be the same, the names of those features will sometimes vary.As the names of the features (ricikan) vary, so do the names of the forms (dhapur) carrying those features, and the word used in a local language to describe the form itself is no longer a Javanese word, but a word that is intelligible to the local user of that word.Thus, Lalu Djelengga, being from Lombok, uses (I guess) a Sasak word instead of Indonesian (bentuk) or Javanese (dhapur) when he is referring to keris from Lombok. In respect of word meanings. In Modern Javanese "dhapur" means "shape, form, design". The word "dapur" does not exist in Javanese, it is an Indonesian word that means "kitchen". The word "bentuk" is an Indonesian word that means "shape, form"; this word does not exist in Javanese. The word "angun-angunan" is a problem. I really do not understand this word, so I am assuming it is a Sasak word which is a synonym of the Indonesian "bentuk" and the Javanese "dhapur", which is the context in which Djelengga has supplied it. In Javanese "angun", or "angun-angun" can mean a bull or it can mean wild; it is not a word found in Indonesian. Angun, angun-angun, and angun-angunan appear not to exist in Old Javanese. I do not believe that we have any need to go back to olden times to understand what a modern author wrote in the 20th or 21st century. Lalu Djelengga gave us a choice of three words, all appearing to mean the same thing:- "bentuk" if we are speaking Indonesian, "dhapur" if we are speaking Javanese, or "angun-angunan" if we are speaking Sasak ( I assume). What he actually presents is a heading to a series of matrices which form a pakem; this heading reads:- NAMA DAN UNSUR CIRI (RICIKAN) BENTUK/ANGUN-ANGUNAN (DHAPUR). Within the pakem supplied by Djelengga the keris form "sinom robyong" does not exist; the form "sinom" does, but not "sinom robyong". Personally, I try to steer away from using Javanese words when I am talking about keris in English. Yes, I know, it can be very impressive to throw a whole heap of dhapurs and condong-leles and jejerans into one's discussion, if for no other reason than to remind people of one's erudition, but why use a Javanese word when there is a perfectly good English word, meaning the same thing, that everybody will understand without thinking? Why not use "form" instead of dhapur? Why not use "handle" instead of "ukiran" or "jejeran"? I think I could precis my position on this matter by saying that I am of the opinion that we should try to maintain a degree of consistency in keris terminology which reflects the area of origin of the keris concerned, thus we would use Javanese terms for a Javanese keris, Sasak terms for a Lombok keris, and so on. Alternatively, we use English words which clearly convey our meaning to English speakers, and only use a Javanese/Balinese/Sasak word where we do not have an English word available. The only keris word I can think of that I do not have an English word available for is "gonjo".