Magnetic weapons

Mare Rosu · 25th February 2005, 12:32 PM

FEARN
I will get one of those knife holders today and give it a try, great idea.
However you are just confirming my deep convictions of your upbringings

I do agree, now that you have explained it to me, on the reason why the needle swings the way is does, most things do go by the path of least resistance.
I am also going to try and find four (cheep) compasses and place them on the blade and take a picture of the compasses all being in a different direction at the same time, just to show to the nay sayers (if there be any out there)

that this is happening the way I am explaining it.
Gene

Jens Nordlunde · 25th February 2005, 04:08 PM

Gene, I can see what you mean – did you use the same amount of iron powder, and are the iron pieces of equal size? I guess that you did, and that they are, but it does not hurt to ask, or I may look forward to another sleepless night

.
Fearn's suggestion sounds like a good idea to try, I am looking forward to hear how the experiment runs.
You were very fast in getting the stone replaced - do you have a mine of your own?

Jens

Mare Rosu · 26th February 2005, 01:37 AM

JENS
I did use the same Iron powder as well as trying to do it the very same way. I could not use as much of the Iron powder as the magnetic field was so weak that if I use more it overwhelmed the effect and I could not take a picture of it. I am getting better at this as it only took me six times this time.

To answer the question about the Peridot replacement on the dagger is that I went to a store in Franklyn NC called Ruby City and they has a pear/seed shaped stone of the exact size needed for the replacement. I did not want to leave the dagger with them so I bought the stone at the outrageous price of $5.00! and did the replacement my self. I did get "how to" advice from the owner as to how to do it. All in all not a bad days piece of work don't you think? For your information, ( I know you did not ask but I will tell you anyway) that Franklyn, NC is famous for it's Ruby mining as well as Sapphires and Garnets and other gems. You have to watch out as there are a lot of "sea sick" Rubies for the unawares for sale. What is "Sea Sick" Rubies you ask? Rubies from overseas that are of very poor quality and the name comes from the sea voyage over here, are then "salted" in the mines for the "tourist" to find.
FEARN
I took your advice/suggestion and did acquire a magnetic knife holder to test the effect on a cheep carbon knife. I also got four compasses to show the effect on the pol changes on the dagger. Will set this all up tomorrow and take pictures for you and others of the forum.
I ask to all that read this thread that JENS started, am I doing to much on all this? I think it is very interesting, as well as fun ( as long as you do not sneeze when doing the Iron powder test!) but that is just my opinion. Anyway I am winding down on this and should be over the testing tomorrow unless JENS ask more hard questions

RADU
You asked a question earlier on this thread, that never got an answer.
Reason I did not answer is that I did not understand the question, if you are still reading this thread ask again and I'll have one my assistants,

JENS or FEARN answer you.

Gene

Jens Nordlunde · 26th February 2005, 09:42 AM

Gene, thank you for answering my questions – also the questions not asked. There is however one question which I did not ask, and which you did not answer. The iron powder you use, how fine is it, is it like table salt, or not quite as fine? From your pictures I think it must be rather fine, but I am not sure.
To my opinion you should go on with the experiment, as I find it interesting and have learned quite a lot from the different answers. Another reason is, that I can’t remember to have seen an experiment like this one on this forum before, although this is/should be part of the interest when collecting swords and daggers.
Jens

Ann Feuerbach · 27th February 2005, 04:14 PM

Hello all!
Now that I have replaced my painfully slow old computer I can start to join in. At the risk of being slightly off the track, here are some thoughts/comments etc on magnetism of crucible Damascus steel blades, for what it is worth.... It would not matter if magnetite was part of the smelt or crucible steel refining process. During the actual production of the crucible steel, since it is liquid and an homogenous steel, the iron particles in the ingot would have a definite alignment to magnetic north (back to Archaeomagnetism). If anyone is really interested in that I could probably give some references as I was teaching it a few weeks ago.
I have heard from those producing crucible Damascus steel today, that at least one blacksmith repeatedly tests the bade during forging, to know when the pattern is good. I will try to find that e-mail, in a list of 500, so it may take a while. Plus, polishing with a loadstone may effect the magnetic properties.
As soon as I get a chance (not till the summer) I will research this topic further, looking for historical references and I will suggest some scientific explinations.
I thought I have covered all aspects of crucible Damascus steel, but magnetivity and sound are the two new brain teasers!

Ann
http://moltenmuse.home.att.net
http://www.AASTI.us

Jens Nordlunde · 27th February 2005, 04:31 PM

Hello Ann, and welcome to the forum.
Do you know, are any of the ingots from the different parts of India magnetic?
In the book ‘The Mansabdari System and the Mughul Army’ the author, Abdul Aziz place the lodestone/Magnetite amongst the semi precious stones. What does it look like?
The sound is interesting. When you can make a katars side guards sound like a tuning fork for a looong time, it is fantastic, but when you try with a katar where the hilt has been cast, the sound is very short.

Jens

Andrew · 27th February 2005, 04:31 PM

Welcome to the forum, Dr. Feuerbach.

Rivkin · 27th February 2005, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach

It would not matter if magnetite was part of the smelt or crucible steel refining process. During the actual production of the crucible steel, since it is liquid and an homogenous steel, the iron particles in the ingot would have a definite alignment to magnetic north (back to Archaeomagnetism). If anyone is really interested in that I could probably give some references as I was teaching it a few weeks ago.

I'm sorry, may be I'm not getting something but:
I understand that magnetite will not make a difference, but taking in mind that iron melts at 1800K, and its Curie temperature is 1000K how it can have (in a liquid state) _any_ definite magnetization. If at 1000K the exchange can not hold these guys together, thermal energy should completely negate any infinitesmal influence that the Earth's magnetic field can possibly have on a liquid metall. Most of steels have Curie temperatures even lower than this, up to 300K and below for some non-corrosive nickel and other steels.

What do you mean by "iron particles" in the _liquid_ ? Domains ? Individual spins ? Non-uniformities of a liquid state ?

Ann Feuerbach · 27th February 2005, 06:52 PM

Perhaps the ingot does not have a magnetic alignment.

I do not know of any experiments done on the archaeomagnetism of iron objects because for archaeomagnetism to be studies, the object must be in situ since firing. Archaeomagnetism is based on the principle of Thermoremanent magnetism (TRM). When a material containing iron such as clay, is heated to above 700 C (1290 F) the iron particles in the clay align to face magnetic north. The direction and intensity of the magnetism of the kiln or hearth is measured to give the date. I assumed that the same principle would have applied to the crucible steel. All the literature I have read just refers to "iron particles". Perhaps I am wrong and the ingot would not have had a TRM. As I said, I must do some more research on this. I must point out that having TRM and being magnetic are different things. As a side not, I have noticed that many archaeological slags with high iron content and iron lumps, that one side is definitly attracted to a magnete while the other side definitly repels.
Ann

25th February 2005, 12:32 PM	#1
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Good Idea! FEARN I will get one of those knife holders today and give it a try, great idea. However you are just confirming my deep convictions of your upbringings I do agree, now that you have explained it to me, on the reason why the needle swings the way is does, most things do go by the path of least resistance. I am also going to try and find four (cheep) compasses and place them on the blade and take a picture of the compasses all being in a different direction at the same time, just to show to the nay sayers (if there be any out there) that this is happening the way I am explaining it. Gene

26th February 2005, 01:37 AM	#3
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Peridot mine! JENS I did use the same Iron powder as well as trying to do it the very same way. I could not use as much of the Iron powder as the magnetic field was so weak that if I use more it overwhelmed the effect and I could not take a picture of it. I am getting better at this as it only took me six times this time. To answer the question about the Peridot replacement on the dagger is that I went to a store in Franklyn NC called Ruby City and they has a pear/seed shaped stone of the exact size needed for the replacement. I did not want to leave the dagger with them so I bought the stone at the outrageous price of $5.00! and did the replacement my self. I did get "how to" advice from the owner as to how to do it. All in all not a bad days piece of work don't you think? For your information, ( I know you did not ask but I will tell you anyway) that Franklyn, NC is famous for it's Ruby mining as well as Sapphires and Garnets and other gems. You have to watch out as there are a lot of "sea sick" Rubies for the unawares for sale. What is "Sea Sick" Rubies you ask? Rubies from overseas that are of very poor quality and the name comes from the sea voyage over here, are then "salted" in the mines for the "tourist" to find. FEARN I took your advice/suggestion and did acquire a magnetic knife holder to test the effect on a cheep carbon knife. I also got four compasses to show the effect on the pol changes on the dagger. Will set this all up tomorrow and take pictures for you and others of the forum. I ask to all that read this thread that JENS started, am I doing to much on all this? I think it is very interesting, as well as fun ( as long as you do not sneeze when doing the Iron powder test!) but that is just my opinion. Anyway I am winding down on this and should be over the testing tomorrow unless JENS ask more hard questions RADU You asked a question earlier on this thread, that never got an answer. Reason I did not answer is that I did not understand the question, if you are still reading this thread ask again and I'll have one my assistants, JENS or FEARN answer you. Gene

25th February 2005, 04:08 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gene, I can see what you mean – did you use the same amount of iron powder, and are the iron pieces of equal size? I guess that you did, and that they are, but it does not hurt to ask, or I may look forward to another sleepless night . Fearn's suggestion sounds like a good idea to try, I am looking forward to hear how the experiment runs. You were very fast in getting the stone replaced - do you have a mine of your own? Jens

26th February 2005, 09:42 AM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gene, thank you for answering my questions – also the questions not asked. There is however one question which I did not ask, and which you did not answer. The iron powder you use, how fine is it, is it like table salt, or not quite as fine? From your pictures I think it must be rather fine, but I am not sure. To my opinion you should go on with the experiment, as I find it interesting and have learned quite a lot from the different answers. Another reason is, that I can’t remember to have seen an experiment like this one on this forum before, although this is/should be part of the interest when collecting swords and daggers. Jens

27th February 2005, 04:14 PM	#5
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hello all! Now that I have replaced my painfully slow old computer I can start to join in. At the risk of being slightly off the track, here are some thoughts/comments etc on magnetism of crucible Damascus steel blades, for what it is worth.... It would not matter if magnetite was part of the smelt or crucible steel refining process. During the actual production of the crucible steel, since it is liquid and an homogenous steel, the iron particles in the ingot would have a definite alignment to magnetic north (back to Archaeomagnetism). If anyone is really interested in that I could probably give some references as I was teaching it a few weeks ago. I have heard from those producing crucible Damascus steel today, that at least one blacksmith repeatedly tests the bade during forging, to know when the pattern is good. I will try to find that e-mail, in a list of 500, so it may take a while. Plus, polishing with a loadstone may effect the magnetic properties. As soon as I get a chance (not till the summer) I will research this topic further, looking for historical references and I will suggest some scientific explinations. I thought I have covered all aspects of crucible Damascus steel, but magnetivity and sound are the two new brain teasers! Ann http://moltenmuse.home.att.net http://www.AASTI.us

27th February 2005, 04:31 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hello Ann, and welcome to the forum. Do you know, are any of the ingots from the different parts of India magnetic? In the book ‘The Mansabdari System and the Mughul Army’ the author, Abdul Aziz place the lodestone/Magnetite amongst the semi precious stones. What does it look like? The sound is interesting. When you can make a katars side guards sound like a tuning fork for a looong time, it is fantastic, but when you try with a katar where the hilt has been cast, the sound is very short. Jens

27th February 2005, 04:31 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Welcome to the forum, Dr. Feuerbach.

27th February 2005, 06:52 PM	#9
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Perhaps the ingot does not have a magnetic alignment. I do not know of any experiments done on the archaeomagnetism of iron objects because for archaeomagnetism to be studies, the object must be in situ since firing. Archaeomagnetism is based on the principle of Thermoremanent magnetism (TRM). When a material containing iron such as clay, is heated to above 700 C (1290 F) the iron particles in the clay align to face magnetic north. The direction and intensity of the magnetism of the kiln or hearth is measured to give the date. I assumed that the same principle would have applied to the crucible steel. All the literature I have read just refers to "iron particles". Perhaps I am wrong and the ingot would not have had a TRM. As I said, I must do some more research on this. I must point out that having TRM and being magnetic are different things. As a side not, I have noticed that many archaeological slags with high iron content and iron lumps, that one side is definitly attracted to a magnete while the other side definitly repels. Ann