The Flying Keris

pakana · 6th April 2007, 09:54 PM

Hello to all,

I would like to express my opinion about the mistical side of keris, since my knowledge about the technical side is rather limited, and there are many people in this forum with vast knowledge about the technical side.

First of all, it is not so rare to find a keris with spirit inside.Most of you here in this forum surely possess such a keris,but you don't know it.If a keris is "possesed" by such a spirit, and how strong that spirit is, it has to do with the quality of a keris.I mean that if an empu created a keris for an average farmer, or a king,you surely understand the difference of the aproach.So if you have a keris that is a very good quality,there are many possibilities to have a "resident" inside.

Also very important is for an owner to treat his keris with respect and love,and to feed it regurarly.Don't forget that,like us human,they also have the need for food and good feelings.If you treat your keris with desrespect,and you don't feed it at all,the power will slowly vanished

Also it is rather rare to harm a keris his owner.We humans are above keris,because we have also an actual body,not just spirit as the keris have.It is very important.And don't confuse the metal around the spirit with the "body".In the scale of existance,humans are above spirits such as keris,which are "built" by humans.Just bare in mind that the majority of keris spirits are rather simple in their way of "acting" and "thinking".They had the original order by their empu to protect someone,for example,so they stick to that original order.It's just like the software of your computer.

I don't know if these helped anyone.If someone has an interesting story or information to share,he is more than welcome.

George

zeus74 · 3rd January 2017, 03:07 AM

sure, you can find artsy keris in madura and middle java. about low quality keris, better explore names at group directly and find keris that qualified as art works. in this case, how the west and native people have value-judgement is completely different. keris is the highest culture in java and only can comprehend under holistic manner. i don't mean this as post-colonial perspective.

i guess it's my last post

David · 3rd January 2017, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeus74

sure, you can find artsy keris in madura and middle java. about low quality keris, better explore names at group directly and find keris that qualified as art works. in this case, how the west and native people have value-judgement is completely different. keris is the highest culture in java and only can comprehend under holistic manner. i don't mean this as post-colonial perspective.

i guess it's my last post

Zeus, whether this is your last post or not is completely up to you. But i will say that you seem to have misunderstood what my criticisms of you posts actually were. This is not a matter of differing cultural value judgements. We simply do not discuss or post commercial links on this forum and the purpose of the forum is purely for study and knowledge, not to sell keris or discuss where one might buy keris.
I completely agree that keris is a part of the highest cultural aspects of Jawa and that it most certainly cannot be understood in a vacuum. Holistic methods of comprehending keris is of the utmost importance. However, trick videos claiming to show keris flying are at best an entertaining distraction to our deeper understanding of the subject.

Bill M · 30th December 2018, 05:00 PM

Fascinating posts.

For myself, I - maybe -, have a flying keris. I acquired the keris and it was in need of cleaning. I separated the blade from the handle and sheath. Cleaned the blade and put it on a top shelf in my workroom.

Carefully, I cleaned the handle, the sheath, the metal parts, let them dry as the finish materials set up. I had been working several days on this.

But when I looked for the blade and it was gone, missing. I searched the workroom from top to bottom. No result. Maybe, though I was certain that I had not moved it from the top shelf, I searched the entire house, our cars, everywhere, it was GONE. Could the blade being naked, it decided to fly away?

So I put it out of my mind. Put the handle and sheath on that top shelf - the blade was still gone. Two weeks later I happened to look on a different shelf and the blade was there! I had carefully looked at that same shelf myriad times. Mystifying! Did it fly away and return? Who knows?

I have studied the paranormal for 40 years. I have seen people seriously focussed on the "Phenomena". Working hard to see a ghost. To have poltergeists moving objects. Seeing "things".

To me, the study of phenomena is a distraction to my studies. I seriously the dead ghost of "Aunt Matilda." Could teach me any more than Aunt Matilda could have told me very much when she was alive.

I put the keris back together and put it with the others.

Do I believe in the connection with the "visible and invisible?" Sure. But I am more interested in "bridges" to the invisible. Can a keris be a 'bridge', and too many people think so. I think it can be a "point of focus" that can help me feel my way to higher levels, the inner planes. But IF is is true to me. I do not care if other people it does. Only if it helps me!

Take a keris and stick it in my shadow? I will walk away - with my shadow - and the keris can stay behind in the ground. If I see a group of people seeing a tiger flying around the room? And I do not? It is THEIR world, not mine. And they can have their world and I have mine.

To me "phenomena" is most likely to hold you to the material world. Think about this? Do you want to reach higher?

In a keris, I see Beauty. And Beauty comes from the inner planes. Simple enough. Get lost in the patterns, the shapes, see Beauty. You are going well, getting higher, reaching to God.

Anything can be a point of focus. A keris, a rock, a piece of wood, a smell, a delightful taste. A sunset. Nature. Beautiful woman.

See the "man" beyond the blade.

Pusaka · 17th January 2019, 08:27 PM

The thing about these type of keris is that if they are not maintained their energy fades over time. Some of those formally live old keris have faded due to neglect.

I dont think the modern keris makers know how to empower these blades any more. So you could say at least one aspect of keris making has died, at least thats what I think.

Rick · 17th January 2019, 08:41 PM

Most of my kerises are kemardikan; most, I believe, were made for purchase by unknown persons, many of them not of keris cultures.

So every time a pande makes a keris he somehow imbues with a spirit or 'soul' no matter if it's going to a Christian in New York city or a Muslim or Hindu villager in Jawa?
How does that work?

Pusaka · 17th January 2019, 10:13 PM

I dont think most (if any) modern keris makers imbue the keris they are making with anything. They just make it as fast as possible so that they can start the next one

A. G. Maisey · 17th January 2019, 11:49 PM

That is not quite so Pusaka.

It may appear to be so to somebody on the outside looking in, and yes, in many cases it is so, but there is at least one Balinese Pande who can still create a keris using the correct mantras and ceremonies.

During the 1980's there were two empus in Jawa who would accept commissions for a traditionally made keris.

If a keris is being made as an art work, or as an item of commerce, it would be totally inappropriate and commercially unviable to create it using the traditional offerings, mantras and prohibitions, so it cannot be expected that a keris that has been made as an item of commerce will have too much of the esoteric about it.

However, much of this business of a keris having some particular essence or power is rooted in the beliefs of its custodian, and there are those who believe that even an "empty" keris can have particular powers called into it.

There is something else that must be mentioned too, and that is that even for a keris that is believed to have some particular esoteric content, that content will only be accessible by a particular person, and it is usually not of the nature imagined by non-initiates. An example of this would be the true pusaka keris that acts as a binding agent that brings together all custodians of previous generations with all members of a kin group in the present generation.

There has probably been more uninformed rubbish written about the "magic" powers of The Keris than perhaps all other cultural artifacts.

We must never forget that The Keris has the nature of a meru and as such it is an empty place waiting the entry of a spiritual entity, thus care must be exercised to ensure that whatever entity might care to take up permanent or passing residence in the keris is not of a negative nature.

Pusaka · 18th January 2019, 11:42 AM

Maisey thanks for that, I think this guy in Bali is a rarity perhaps because he is a Hindu these mantras have survived there. These mantras as I understand it are all vedic and I question their survival in Islamic Indonesia. They are most likely to be replaced with Islamic prayer and if so the whole efficiency is lost.
Same with the making of cimande oil, it requires vedic mantras to be chanted over it as far as I understand, how will a strict Muslim chant vedic mantra, again the temptation is to replace it with verse from the Koran.

I was reading another thread on here where you say that you like to drench your keris in WD40, and then paint them with Sandalwood oil mix. I was always told you must not put unnatural oils on a live keris as it will kill it, the smoke and the oil is its food. I dont think it would enjoy WD40 what do you think?

Bill M · 18th January 2019, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Maisey thanks for that, I think this guy in Bali is a rarity perhaps because he is a Hindu these mantras have survived there. These mantras as I understand it are all vedic and I question their survival in Islamic Indonesia. They are most likely to be replaced with Islamic prayer and if so the whole efficiency is lost.
Same with the making of cimande oil, it requires vedic mantras to be chanted over it as far as I understand, how will a strict Muslim chant vedic mantra, again the temptation is to replace it with verse from the Koran.

I am curious about your comments. What are your sources? Or are you just espousing your personal opinions?

It was my understanding that Indonesian Islam is founded and intermixed with previous religions and varies that even though the majority of Indonesia is Islam, but syncretic with other religions.

Quite different from than the Middle East Islam.

So it could be, and possibly would be, Islamic prayer still be infused in the keris.

Pusaka · 18th January 2019, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

I am curious about your comments. What are your sources? Or are you just espousing your personal opinions?

It was my understanding that Indonesian Islam is founded and intermixed with previous religions and varies that even though the majority of Indonesia is Islam, but syncretic with other religions.

Quite different from than the Middle East Islam.

So it could be, and possibly would be, Islamic prayer still be infused in the keris.

Well I used to practice Silat and so learnt a few things regarding Keris through that, plus reading, plus Indonesian friends who sell and deal with keris.

As to the harmony in Indonesia between Islam and other religions you speak of...Nope!

Just one example below but you can find many

"Borobudur, Islamists target Indonesia’s most important Buddhist temple
by Mathias HariyadiThe complex, a UNESCO World Heritage Site, risks being destroyed like the Buddhas of Bamiyan. Authorities strengthen security measures. Citizens invited to participate in the defense of "cultural heritage". President Yudhoyono declares jihadist violence "humiliating" for Islam....."

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Borob...ple-31946.html

You also suggest that a vedic mantra can be replaced by an Islamic prayer and the outcome will be the same, not so because it has everything to do with a knowledge of sound. The whole Science of mantra is based on sound, tone, melody and the effects these cause. You cannot replace these "formulas" (sonic compositions) with some Islamic prayer of your choosing and expect the same result.

kronckew · 18th January 2019, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

...

I was reading another thread on here where you say that you like to drench your keris in WD40, and then paint them with Sandalwood oil mix. I was always told you must not put unnatural oils on a live keris as it will kill it, the smoke and the oil is its food. I dont think it would enjoy WD40 what do you think?

Heck, I don't use WD40 on any weapon, it's OK for loosening nuts on other items, but isn't even a good rust preventative, mediocre at best. It dries eventually, leaving a residue.

I do use Ballistol, but not on my only kris...Smells nicer too, no known hazards to life.

A. G. Maisey · 18th January 2019, 07:11 PM

Well, I've just read through the posts that have been entered since my previous one.

It does seem that I need to set some time aside to respond to these posts, they are not the sort of thing that I can dash off a 3 minute response to, and I'll do that just as soon as I can arrange the time.

Bill M · 18th January 2019, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

That is not quite so Pusaka.

It may appear to be so to somebody on the outside looking in, and yes, in many cases it is so, but there is at least one Balinese Pande who can still create a keris using the correct mantras and ceremonies.

During the 1980's there were two empus in Jawa who would accept commissions for a traditionally made keris.

If a keris is being made as an art work, or as an item of commerce, it would be totally inappropriate and commercially unviable to create it using the traditional offerings, mantras and prohibitions, so it cannot be expected that a keris that has been made as an item of commerce will have too much of the esoteric about it.

However, much of this business of a keris having some particular essence or power is rooted in the beliefs of its custodian, and there are those who believe that even an "empty" keris can have particular powers called into it.

There is something else that must be mentioned too, and that is that even for a keris that is believed to have some particular esoteric content, that content will only be accessible by a particular person, and it is usually not of the nature imagined by non-initiates. An example of this would be the true pusaka keris that acts as a binding agent that brings together all custodians of previous generations with all members of a kin group in the present generation.

There has probably been more uninformed rubbish written about the "magic" powers of The Keris than perhaps all other cultural artifacts.

We must never forget that The Keris has the nature of a meru and as such it is an empty place waiting the entry of a spiritual entity, thus care must be exercised to ensure that whatever entity might care to take up permanent or passing residence in the keris is not of a negative nature.

WOW! Beautifully said! I am in alignment.

Bill M · 18th January 2019, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We must never forget that The Keris has the nature of a meru and as such it is an empty place waiting the entry of a spiritual entity, thus care must be exercised to ensure that whatever entity might care to take up permanent or passing residence in the keris is not of a negative nature.

"there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

I suppose - I am open to questions - that most keris were made for an individual, perhaps factoring in the person's status, possibly a scholar or military. As well as the person's numerology and other factors such as auspicious astrological events.

The finer keris may have been made to greater exacting standards. The more Beauty, in terms of the original custodian and those that follow - and the Beauty is always personal.

The greater Beauty has power as with all artifacts.

But the original pande whom made the keris infused the nature of the original custodian. That "nature" could be very positive for a scholarly individual, but might be very negative to a warlike individual and vice versa.

So, by the nature of the keris could affect present custodian, and as Alan Maisey so well said, there is a line of past custodians who have connected with the keris over time.

Personally, my fascination with the keris is that most were handmade. Imagine a dark hellish forge where the blade was made. Fire, hammering, folding, quenched and carefully made. Likely it would have been dark, so the pande could judge the heat by the color of the metal.

The blade was birthed in fire, smoke, noise. Then, is a very different setting, the dress was made. Different craftsman. Light, beauty, incense, quietude, the keris was clothed.

All these could have been done on auspicious events. It could and possibly did take years. Making a keris "right" would take time.

At some point in the process, the blade was cleaned, stained and anointed. It was renewed in yearly ceremonies. Dress was changed by the custodians many times during their lifetimes. Could be events of birth, puberty, marriage, even the fortunes of the custodians.

The dress is really just a dress. In the blade, the heart and soul resides.

Respect the blade. "respect" and "fear" are the same root word.

Think about this.

30th December 2018, 05:00 PM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Fascinating posts. For myself, I - maybe -, have a flying keris. I acquired the keris and it was in need of cleaning. I separated the blade from the handle and sheath. Cleaned the blade and put it on a top shelf in my workroom. Carefully, I cleaned the handle, the sheath, the metal parts, let them dry as the finish materials set up. I had been working several days on this. But when I looked for the blade and it was gone, missing. I searched the workroom from top to bottom. No result. Maybe, though I was certain that I had not moved it from the top shelf, I searched the entire house, our cars, everywhere, it was GONE. Could the blade being naked, it decided to fly away? So I put it out of my mind. Put the handle and sheath on that top shelf - the blade was still gone. Two weeks later I happened to look on a different shelf and the blade was there! I had carefully looked at that same shelf myriad times. Mystifying! Did it fly away and return? Who knows? I have studied the paranormal for 40 years. I have seen people seriously focussed on the "Phenomena". Working hard to see a ghost. To have poltergeists moving objects. Seeing "things". To me, the study of phenomena is a distraction to my studies. I seriously the dead ghost of "Aunt Matilda." Could teach me any more than Aunt Matilda could have told me very much when she was alive. I put the keris back together and put it with the others. Do I believe in the connection with the "visible and invisible?" Sure. But I am more interested in "bridges" to the invisible. Can a keris be a 'bridge', and too many people think so. I think it can be a "point of focus" that can help me feel my way to higher levels, the inner planes. But IF is is true to me. I do not care if other people it does. Only if it helps me! Take a keris and stick it in my shadow? I will walk away - with my shadow - and the keris can stay behind in the ground. If I see a group of people seeing a tiger flying around the room? And I do not? It is THEIR world, not mine. And they can have their world and I have mine. To me "phenomena" is most likely to hold you to the material world. Think about this? Do you want to reach higher? In a keris, I see Beauty. And Beauty comes from the inner planes. Simple enough. Get lost in the patterns, the shapes, see Beauty. You are going well, getting higher, reaching to God. Anything can be a point of focus. A keris, a rock, a piece of wood, a smell, a delightful taste. A sunset. Nature. Beautiful woman. See the "man" beyond the blade. Last edited by Bill M; 31st December 2018 at 02:37 AM.

6th April 2007, 09:54 PM	#1
pakana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 74	Hello to all, I would like to express my opinion about the mistical side of keris, since my knowledge about the technical side is rather limited, and there are many people in this forum with vast knowledge about the technical side. First of all, it is not so rare to find a keris with spirit inside.Most of you here in this forum surely possess such a keris,but you don't know it.If a keris is "possesed" by such a spirit, and how strong that spirit is, it has to do with the quality of a keris.I mean that if an empu created a keris for an average farmer, or a king,you surely understand the difference of the aproach.So if you have a keris that is a very good quality,there are many possibilities to have a "resident" inside. Also very important is for an owner to treat his keris with respect and love,and to feed it regurarly.Don't forget that,like us human,they also have the need for food and good feelings.If you treat your keris with desrespect,and you don't feed it at all,the power will slowly vanished Also it is rather rare to harm a keris his owner.We humans are above keris,because we have also an actual body,not just spirit as the keris have.It is very important.And don't confuse the metal around the spirit with the "body".In the scale of existance,humans are above spirits such as keris,which are "built" by humans.Just bare in mind that the majority of keris spirits are rather simple in their way of "acting" and "thinking".They had the original order by their empu to protect someone,for example,so they stick to that original order.It's just like the software of your computer. I don't know if these helped anyone.If someone has an interesting story or information to share,he is more than welcome. George

3rd January 2017, 03:07 AM	#2
zeus74 Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 7	sure, you can find artsy keris in madura and middle java. about low quality keris, better explore names at group directly and find keris that qualified as art works. in this case, how the west and native people have value-judgement is completely different. keris is the highest culture in java and only can comprehend under holistic manner. i don't mean this as post-colonial perspective. i guess it's my last post

17th January 2019, 08:27 PM	#5
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	The thing about these type of keris is that if they are not maintained their energy fades over time. Some of those formally live old keris have faded due to neglect. I dont think the modern keris makers know how to empower these blades any more. So you could say at least one aspect of keris making has died, at least thats what I think.

17th January 2019, 08:41 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Most of my kerises are kemardikan; most, I believe, were made for purchase by unknown persons, many of them not of keris cultures. So every time a pande makes a keris he somehow imbues with a spirit or 'soul' no matter if it's going to a Christian in New York city or a Muslim or Hindu villager in Jawa? How does that work?

17th January 2019, 10:13 PM	#7
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I dont think most (if any) modern keris makers imbue the keris they are making with anything. They just make it as fast as possible so that they can start the next one

17th January 2019, 11:49 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	That is not quite so Pusaka. It may appear to be so to somebody on the outside looking in, and yes, in many cases it is so, but there is at least one Balinese Pande who can still create a keris using the correct mantras and ceremonies. During the 1980's there were two empus in Jawa who would accept commissions for a traditionally made keris. If a keris is being made as an art work, or as an item of commerce, it would be totally inappropriate and commercially unviable to create it using the traditional offerings, mantras and prohibitions, so it cannot be expected that a keris that has been made as an item of commerce will have too much of the esoteric about it. However, much of this business of a keris having some particular essence or power is rooted in the beliefs of its custodian, and there are those who believe that even an "empty" keris can have particular powers called into it. There is something else that must be mentioned too, and that is that even for a keris that is believed to have some particular esoteric content, that content will only be accessible by a particular person, and it is usually not of the nature imagined by non-initiates. An example of this would be the true pusaka keris that acts as a binding agent that brings together all custodians of previous generations with all members of a kin group in the present generation. There has probably been more uninformed rubbish written about the "magic" powers of The Keris than perhaps all other cultural artifacts. We must never forget that The Keris has the nature of a meru and as such it is an empty place waiting the entry of a spiritual entity, thus care must be exercised to ensure that whatever entity might care to take up permanent or passing residence in the keris is not of a negative nature.

18th January 2019, 11:42 AM	#9
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Maisey thanks for that, I think this guy in Bali is a rarity perhaps because he is a Hindu these mantras have survived there. These mantras as I understand it are all vedic and I question their survival in Islamic Indonesia. They are most likely to be replaced with Islamic prayer and if so the whole efficiency is lost. Same with the making of cimande oil, it requires vedic mantras to be chanted over it as far as I understand, how will a strict Muslim chant vedic mantra, again the temptation is to replace it with verse from the Koran. I was reading another thread on here where you say that you like to drench your keris in WD40, and then paint them with Sandalwood oil mix. I was always told you must not put unnatural oils on a live keris as it will kill it, the smoke and the oil is its food. I dont think it would enjoy WD40 what do you think?

18th January 2019, 07:11 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Well, I've just read through the posts that have been entered since my previous one. It does seem that I need to set some time aside to respond to these posts, they are not the sort of thing that I can dash off a 3 minute response to, and I'll do that just as soon as I can arrange the time.