Swords a la Portuguese

[fernando]

At this moment i am in Lisbon, visiting my daughter.
I have been, as usual, at Daehnhardt's shop. Besides having bought a ( aledgely ) Portuguese XVIII century plug bayonet, which might in fact be from Azores, as its grip is composed with what looks to be whale bone, i have acquired a catalogue of an auction that took place in 1989, because it contains various pictures of ( really ) Portuguese weapons. The amazing thing is that it had for sale the sword that appears in the first picture of above mentioned Antonio's page, which means that Rainer Daeehnhardt must have bought this sword at such auction ... can you beleive it ?
In the catalogue text they confirm that only five of these swords are known to exist. There seems to be one more in Spain, which is item nr. 59 of Institute Valencia y Don Juan, in Madrid. A fourth one was found recently ( from the catalogue's date ) between the walls of a Portuguese Palace, and now kept in Daehnhardt's collection. This would mean that he now keeps the two existing specimens in Portugal. Eventually and still according to the text, this sword, found in a tomb in a Portuguese convent, has the blade broken and the tip missing but, due to its historical value, nobody had yet dared to restore it. It happens that i have arranged with the shop keeper to meet Rainer himself tomorrow, in his other Cascais shop, to ask him for some details on the plug bayonet. I will then ask him to coment on his probable acquisition of the sword at the auction, and if has decided to restore it.
Marc, what do you mean by lousy photocopies ? Are you referring to the pictures contained in his book Homens Espadas e Tomates ? Can i help you with some scanning ? Also this book is vailable and not expensive.
I can also scan the picture of the sword in the auction catalogue, which has a reasonable quality. Also there was another copy of the catalogue left in the shop; it costs 20 euros. If ever i can help in any way, just tell, as also Philip.
BTW, the correct term applied by the discoveries soldiers was espada "colhona", an humoristic made up derivation of the vernacular term "colhão" ... actually with a more vernacular charge in Portugal than in Spain, i would say

[Marc]

The Bereber kingdoms had mixed relationships with the Islamic dominions in the Iberian peninsula throughout their history... it was during the time of last Nasrid Caliphs (mid-late 15th c.) that these hilts developed.

To be fully sincere, I find that the relationship between this kind of guards and the so-called nimcha and Zanzibar swords deserves a deeper study, although I don't expect to find any direct link. But that's because I'm afraid I lack too much data... To start with, I would like to know when these guards first start to appear in the Maghrib and in Arabia, and if it is possible to clarify where they appeared first. My preliminary bets would go to them going from Arabia to the Maghrib, and not the other way around, just for a question of raw power of influence. Besides, I've seen at least one exemplar of "Zanzibar", with stems (in Spanish they are called pitones) in the hilt and a short(ish), wide, cutting blade, with traces of etched designs and inscriptions in Arabic, but with a koftgariand enamel decoration typical of North African late exemplars. What it means, is hard to say without knowing where it came from and an approximate date for it, but at least it bears witness of a cross-influence. Too many questions and far too little data for anything but preliminary hypothesis, for now, at least in my case... gotta get a hold of that article relating these swords with Genoa, I've heard this argument a lot of times and would really love to see the data that led to that conclusion, it would probably dispel some of my doubts. Funny, this is one of the many questions that I have permanently in the back of my mind, probably because I like this type of swords so much...

How are the secondary arms of the guard called in English? I can't recall right now... in Spanish they are called patillas, "little legs" (and also "sideburns", funnily enough).

Fernando, thank you very much for your offer. The photocopies I have are from what I think is a small catalogue of the Daehnhardt's collection, or at least a part of it. I got them in the fly, a long time ago, without being really able to ask for details (one of these "take it or leave it" things, but I just couldn't let pass the chance of having at least a small glimpse into one of the most important arms collections in the Iberian Peninsula). I don't know if such a catalogue really exists and is still available somewhere...
Congratulations on your purchase by the way
And about being the sword in the auction... well, arms collecting and studying is a small world, after all. Spend some time in it, and you start to find the same names again and again and again...

There's some more swords of this design in Spain and elsewhere in Europe, at least the Spanish variation, some in Museums, some in private hands. One of them is indeed the beautiful exemplar in the Instituto Valencia de Don Juan in Madrid:

[fernando]

In fact, Rainer Daehnhardt has bought that rare navigator's sword at the auction, and even another one, also taken from a tomb, and in a very bad excavated condition. So now he has three specimens, so many as those existing in Spain. As Mark says, arms collecting is a confined circuit. Anyway this man is quite a character, his collection inventory is measured by the thousand multiple. Given the fact that Philip has his famous book Homens Espadas e Tomates but the texts are in Portuguese, and also that i have just posed Mr. Raehnhardt some ( layman ) questions on this subject, let me here try and offer a couple coments to your remarks.
Fernando's sword has rounded terminals to the principal quillons that are related to the testicles, whereas Gonzalo's hilt has flattened ends.
The version of Gran Capitan de Cordoba was in fact the most used style by Portuguese, Spaniards and Italians. Eventualy, and with my respects to Antonio Cejunior, the fifth picture in the above shown Antonio's page, a 1500's navigator sword, is quoted in Daehnhardt's book as being of Venetian origin.The version with the round quillons (guardas or quartões ) appears to be a Portuguese exclusive, mostly used and developed in the Portuguese strongholds in Africa. Known as colhona by rank and file, it was listed in inventories as Espada Preta de Bordo ( Board black sword ). They were painted black, to avoid rust and light reflexion, and they were considered ( also) for naval use. Outstandingly in some specimens, the round quillons are found quite sharpened, which sugests that these parts were also used as weapons for close combat.
It's interesting to note that the colonial imitations have much smaller pommels than their European predecessors.
European specimens were in fact of highly noticeable superior quality, but in colonial pieces some differences could be noticed between those made by Portuguese smiths detached to Africa, like to the Fort of São Jorge da Mina, and those made by Indigenous imitators, like those from Congo, who kept making them till a much later period. The tangs could just be bent at the pommel end, and not riveted, as also other finishing details would be neglected, like the pommel size. However the blades could be of similar quality, as all imported from Spain and Germany, which makes it harder to distinguish one from the other.
French writers on the subject maintain that they were designed this way as "blade catchers"
Actually Daehnhardt also quotes this possibility.

Hi Mark,
Ablout your observation:
To be fully sincere, I find that the relationship between this kind of guards and the so-called nimcha and Zanzibar swords deserves a deeper study
Daehnhardt sugests that Portuguese influence extends from the Morocan Nimcha to the Cingalese Kastane.
BTW, I must warn you that, in the book i have sugested and provided the link, the only crab swords shown are those in the pictures i have posted above. The many others are of different weaponry.
On the other hand, Homens Espadas e Tomates is well within this area of Discoveries Swords, having already sold several thousand copies ( some six editions from three different editors ) and costs something like 20 euros.
If i manage to deal with my wild scanner, i will send you copy of some pages, for you to have an idea of how interesting it is for you ... or not.
Kind regards
fernando

[fernando]

The sword belonging to El Gran Capitan is indeed a "the luxe" piece and kept in an fantastic good condition. On the contrary, the sword atributed ( but not assured ) to Pedro Alcaro Cabral, Brazil discoverer, is well excavated, broken in two halves, and with a missing tip. This is the best achieveable picture, from the Silvas auction catalogue, together with an overall silhouete,from the Daehnhardt book.

[Marc]

I’m trying to get a hold of Nobre’s book, the only problem is that the editorial has his online shop built on a non-secure server. There’s no way I’m going to send my credit card details over such a connection. I contacted them, let’s see if we can work something out.

Speaking of which… I would also be interested, indeed, in getting “Homens Espadas e Tomates”, could we arrange something? If you have anything in mind, please, contact me via PM and we’ll see what can be done. In any event, thank you very much for your offer.

Regarding your comments…



Yes, I agree that the swords with the rounded quillion finials are exclusively Portugese, or from Portugese-controlled lands. But:

the fifth picture in the above shown Antonio's page, a 1500's navigator sword, is quoted in Daehnhardt's book as being of Venetian origin

If you’re referring to this one:



I think it’s also Portugese, for what I can gather from the picture. It only lacks the rounded quillion finials, but there’s plenty of other elements, specially the proportions of the different elements, that relate it with the “colhona”. If Mr. Daehnhardt has any additional information that makes him believe otherwise, I would love to know it…



On the other hand, the last sword:



it’s indeed of a less specific type, possibly Iberian, from the Spanish kingdoms in Italy or from other Italian sources. Can’t be more specific without more data.

Daehnhardt sugests that Portuguese influence extends from the Morocan Nimcha to the Cingalese Kastane.

Well, and I suggest that, here, the full extent of the word “influence” would then become the core of a much deep, long and intense debate…

By the way, thank you for the warning about the number of “colhonas” in Nobre’s book, but, to be sincere, I’m interested in everything it has to say about Portugese weapons in general. There’s so little written about them, and, If you ask me, it’s a bit fallacious to pretend to study “Spanish” weapons without at least being somewhat familiar with those of our closest neighbours



Thanks again, Fernando. A nice discussion.

[fernando]

Right Marc, you have a PM
fernando

[RRSAND]

It may look a bit weird, to "ressurect" a 10 year old post, but... Information on this is scarce.
What do you think of this (it was found in Angola, in the 60's, and i recently aquired it)?
Sorry about the quality of the photos, but i don´t have my "real" camera with me...

[Battara]

Moving this to the European section. Probably get better responses there.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Marc

The Bereber kingdoms had mixed relationships with the Islamic dominions in the Iberian peninsula throughout their history... it was during the time of last Nasrid Caliphs (mid-late 15th c.) that these hilts developed.

To be fully sincere, I find that the relationship between this kind of guards and the so-called nimcha and Zanzibar swords deserves a deeper study, although I don't expect to find any direct link. But that's because I'm afraid I lack too much data... To start with, I would like to know when these guards first start to appear in the Maghrib and in Arabia, and if it is possible to clarify where they appeared first. My preliminary bets would go to them going from Arabia to the Maghrib, and not the other way around, just for a question of raw power of influence. Besides, I've seen at least one exemplar of "Zanzibar", with stems (in Spanish they are called pitones) in the hilt and a short(ish), wide, cutting blade, with traces of etched designs and inscriptions in Arabic, but with a koftgariand enamel decoration typical of North African late exemplars. What it means, is hard to say without knowing where it came from and an approximate date for it, but at least it bears witness of a cross-influence. Too many questions and far too little data for anything but preliminary hypothesis, for now, at least in my case... gotta get a hold of that article relating these swords with Genoa, I've heard this argument a lot of times and would really love to see the data that led to that conclusion, it would probably dispel some of my doubts. Funny, this is one of the many questions that I have permanently in the back of my mind, probably because I like this type of swords so much...

How are the secondary arms of the guard called in English? I can't recall right now... in Spanish they are called patillas, "little legs" (and also "sideburns", funnily enough).

Fernando, thank you very much for your offer. The photocopies I have are from what I think is a small catalogue of the Daehnhardt's collection, or at least a part of it. I got them in the fly, a long time ago, without being really able to ask for details (one of these "take it or leave it" things, but I just couldn't let pass the chance of having at least a small glimpse into one of the most important arms collections in the Iberian Peninsula). I don't know if such a catalogue really exists and is still available somewhere...
Congratulations on your purchase by the way
And about being the sword in the auction... well, arms collecting and studying is a small world, after all. Spend some time in it, and you start to find the same names again and again and again...

There's some more swords of this design in Spain and elsewhere in Europe, at least the Spanish variation, some in Museums, some in private hands. One of them is indeed the beautiful exemplar in the Instituto Valencia de Don Juan in Madrid:

Salaams Marc, In respect of your fine details and about the Zanzibari odd example ... Perhaps this has been clarified already however, your description clearly seems to be of a Moroccan Nimcha not Zanzibari underscored by the pitones and koftgari not seen on Zanzibar Nimchas. What shape is the Knuckleguard and is there a simple rounded stud or a turtle shape on the pommel top? . Is there a picture we can view of this example ?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Ibrahiim, you are bringing back a post submitted by Marc ten years ago. Perhaps his answer will take some time come in. It has been now about four years that he doesn't visit us. Last time i contacted him he said he was overloaded with work at his job and so couldn't attend to forum business... which is a pitty, by the way .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Ibrahiim, you are bringing back a post submitted by Marc ten years ago. Perhaps his answer will take some time come in. It has been now about four years that he doesn't visit us. Last time i contacted him he said he was overloaded with work at his job and so couldn't attend to forum business... which is a pitty, by the way .

Ah such a pity ... and was why I asked...Perhaps this has been clarified already?... seeing that there was a huge time lapse. His description is certainly of the Moroccan form..He wrote ;

Quote" Besides, I've seen at least one exemplar of "Zanzibar", with stems (in Spanish they are called pitones) in the hilt and a short(ish), wide, cutting blade, with traces of etched designs and inscriptions in Arabic, but with a koftgari and enamel decoration typical of North African late exemplars."Unquote.

In another thread I have just considered the difference in Knuckleguards on these two styles concluding at

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21833

both the reason for the variance and the conclusion placing the Moroccan position as clearly the instigator of the basic design of the hilt.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here an interesting Portuguese ,or in the least, an Iberian Sword:

[fernando]

Spanish Colonial, just like one had in my collection. Sorry but, nothing to do with typical Swords a la Portuguese... or a la Iberian .


.