Interesting Kris for comments

David · 28th March 2007, 07:06 PM

I dare say that looks like a pamored piece ya got there Bill. It would be interesting to see what some warangan would do for it.

It also has rather well formed "sogakan" and a very Indonesian "sekar kacang". Given all these factors i am inclined to suggest that this is not a Moro kris, but an Indo one, or at least made by an Indo smith who may have relocated.
We might have to move this one to the keris forum.

David · 28th March 2007, 07:07 PM

Oh, did i say, that's sweet!?

Bill M · 28th March 2007, 07:46 PM

I am quite curious about it. Indo / Moro?

carlos · 28th March 2007, 08:49 PM

BEAUTIFUL KRIS!!

IS FROM BORNEO?

CONGRATULATIONS FOR THIS PIECE
CARLOS

Bill · 28th March 2007, 08:59 PM

Very interesting kris, I don't recall seeing a straight blade "18thC" before. The blade tip seems to be in-between a stabbing & slashing sword. From what I can recall all the "18thC", I have seen, have a more defined point. Nice example of crossover from keris to kris. As far as "Indo smith who may have relocated", I think this kris preceeds the Philippine kris & a "relocated" smith wouldn't just start making a "kris" just because he is on, what is now, Philippine soil. Simular pattern to a wavy kris RSword & myself have posted before.

Lew · 28th March 2007, 09:34 PM

I think this center kris of mine is late 18th or early 19th century it exhibits a narrow blade and a cruder ganja but it seems more Moro than Bill's.

Lew

kai · 28th March 2007, 10:20 PM

Hello Bill,

I'm pretty sure this is an ethnic Malay example - Riau, Straits or even eastern Sumatra.

I wouldn't rule out Borneo/Brunei but most examples collected from Borneo seem to have originated from Sulu (or being crafted in the same style) with some trade blades from Mindanao thrown in the mix. Also, I don't recall any pamor blade from Borneo nor Moro provenance, especially not this pamor (even welded in low contrast).

The gangya configuration is keris-like and doesn't fit into Cato's categories. So, all bets are off on this piece... However, the carving of the blade is really nicely done and I'd guess it has some real age. I'm less convinced of the fittings, especially the clamp might be a quite recent replacement.

BTW, it's easy to tell ivory from giant clam shell with the help of a reasonable magnifying glass - the latter is quite porous and shows different growth rings.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 28th March 2007, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

I don't recall seeing a straight blade "18thC" before.

I have a possible contender which might be from Sulu. Not yet in a publishable condition though...

BTW, could you please post a close-up of your piece, Lew? I agree that this also seems to be Moro.

Quote:

Nice example of crossover from keris to kris. As far as "Indo smith who may have relocated", I think this kris preceeds the Philippine kris & a "relocated" smith wouldn't just start making a "kris" just because he is on, what is now, Philippine soil.

I think you have it backwards, kinda: While the kris best known from the Moro evolved from Malay/Indonesian keris, any extant pieces whose construction speaks for an origin in Malaysia or Indonesia seem to be younger than the oldest Moro kris. I'd postulate that these were crafted after (extensive and well established) contact with Moro traders and most likely inspired by Moro trade blades.

Regards,
Kai

David · 28th March 2007, 11:23 PM

Yeah Bill (Marsh), this blade seems to exhibit far too many Indo/Malay keris features to be a Moro kris. There is even a very well developed (and extented) tikel alis. The gonjo, as Kai already stated, is much more an Indo than a Moro form. And without a good staining i wouldn't even be so sure that the pamor is a low contrast material (i really think you should stain it Bill

).
Bill (the other one), i am with Kai and i don't believe this keris necessarily pre-dates the Moro kris. No, a relocated Indo/Malay smith wouldn't "just start making a "kris" because he is on Philippine soil". He would be asked to make one because that is his skill. If indeed this blade was made in Moroland and is old enough, it could be that it still exhibits Malay/Indo traits because it is transitional from Indo to Moro need. Still, if i were a betting man

i would wager this blade was made in Indonesian (Sumatra or Sulawesi) early on, but still after the introduction of Moroland kris.
Kai, you may still be right about Riau or the Straits, but this type of pamor looks more like what i would associate with Celebes or Sumatra.

kai · 29th March 2007, 12:04 AM

Hello David,

Quote:

There is even a very well developed (and extented) tikel alis.

Yeah, that one caught my eye, too.

That's also present on the archaic Moro kris, however, the execution is different...

Quote:

And without a good staining i wouldn't even be so sure that the pamor is a low contrast material (i really think you should stain it Bill

).

I was referring to Moro kris which are usually done in low contrast. This piece seems to be regular (if Malay/Bugis) pamor though. An etch may be enough to bring out the pattern but some warangan may also be interesting.

Quote:

Kai, you may still be right about Riau or the Straits, but this type of pamor looks more like what i would associate with Celebes or Sumatra.

Yes, it's pretty common with keris blades from Palembang and places of strong Bugis influence. I'd like to hear from our Singapore/Malay members if the pamor could help in narrowing things down!

Regards,
Kai

Bill · 28th March 2007, 11:24 PM

[QUOTE=kai]

I think you have it backwards, kinda: While the kris best known from the Moro evolved from Malay/Indonesian keris, any extant pieces whose construction speaks for an origin in Malaysia or Indonesia seem to be younger than the oldest Moro kris. I'd postulate that these were crafted after (extensive and well established) contact with Moro traders and most likely inspired by Moro trade blades.

Hi Kai, We know the "18thC" started out with round tangs & was for stabbing. I think the earliest "kris" was a "18C", if so, who made it. I'll stick with the Bugis as the most likely suspects. Just can't believe the "18thC" was a "starter" edition.

David · 28th March 2007, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Hi Kai, We know the "18thC" started out with round tangs & was for stabbing. I think the earliest "kris" was a "18C", if so, who made it. I'll stick with the Bugis as the most likely suspects. Just can't believe the "18thC" was a "starter" edition.

I didn't know this. Do ALL of the earliest "18thC"s have round tangs for sure, or is this an assumption. I don't own any of these "archaic" style kris so i don't know from my own experience. I am also not sure that calling them "18thC" kris is in our best interest since i think some of these are probably a little older than that.
I know we have been around this block before, but i do find it difficult to accept these "archaic" kris as Bugis since the blade form doesn't really resemble the bugis style of keris very much. I am also confused as to why you can't believe that these keris could possible be a "starter edition".

kai · 29th March 2007, 12:31 AM

Hello Bill,

Quote:

We know the "18thC" started out with round tangs & was for stabbing.

Ethnic Malay keris sundang also (often?) have a round pesi, even the large examples AFAIK.

Quote:

I think the earliest "kris" was a "18C", if so, who made it. I'll stick with the Bugis as the most likely suspects. Just can't believe the "18thC" was a "starter" edition.

I've seen worse starter editions, for sure!

While it is tempting to single out the Bugis which certainly had a lot of contact with the Tausug (for better or worse

), I'm a bit weary with this hypothesis due to the lack of actual keris sundang (archaic, old and even not so old exmples...) with sound provenance from that region (or even from all over Sulawesi)!

For example, I think it will be hard to completely diss the northern link: Malaya - Brunei - Sulu. We also have to keep in mind that extensive trade contacts had been established for millennia throughout SE Asia. I think there are early sources that at least the Tausug were very active seafarers from early on. So, regardless wether the rulers happened to be in good terms or were enemies, it seems safe to assume that the Moro had close contact with about any other major player in the region and beyond.

Regards,
Kai

28th March 2007, 08:49 PM	#4
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 738	BEATIFUL KRIS BEAUTIFUL KRIS!! IS FROM BORNEO? CONGRATULATIONS FOR THIS PIECE CARLOS

28th March 2007, 09:34 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I think this center kris of mine is late 18th or early 19th century it exhibits a narrow blade and a cruder ganja but it seems more Moro than Bill's. Lew Attached Images

28th March 2007, 07:06 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	I dare say that looks like a pamored piece ya got there Bill. It would be interesting to see what some warangan would do for it. It also has rather well formed "sogakan" and a very Indonesian "sekar kacang". Given all these factors i am inclined to suggest that this is not a Moro kris, but an Indo one, or at least made by an Indo smith who may have relocated. We might have to move this one to the keris forum.

28th March 2007, 07:07 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Oh, did i say, that's sweet!?

28th March 2007, 07:46 PM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I am quite curious about it. Indo / Moro?

28th March 2007, 08:59 PM	#5
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Very interesting kris, I don't recall seeing a straight blade "18thC" before. The blade tip seems to be in-between a stabbing & slashing sword. From what I can recall all the "18thC", I have seen, have a more defined point. Nice example of crossover from keris to kris. As far as "Indo smith who may have relocated", I think this kris preceeds the Philippine kris & a "relocated" smith wouldn't just start making a "kris" just because he is on, what is now, Philippine soil. Simular pattern to a wavy kris RSword & myself have posted before.

28th March 2007, 10:20 PM	#7
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Bill, I'm pretty sure this is an ethnic Malay example - Riau, Straits or even eastern Sumatra. I wouldn't rule out Borneo/Brunei but most examples collected from Borneo seem to have originated from Sulu (or being crafted in the same style) with some trade blades from Mindanao thrown in the mix. Also, I don't recall any pamor blade from Borneo nor Moro provenance, especially not this pamor (even welded in low contrast). The gangya configuration is keris-like and doesn't fit into Cato's categories. So, all bets are off on this piece... However, the carving of the blade is really nicely done and I'd guess it has some real age. I'm less convinced of the fittings, especially the clamp might be a quite recent replacement. BTW, it's easy to tell ivory from giant clam shell with the help of a reasonable magnifying glass - the latter is quite porous and shows different growth rings. Regards, Kai

28th March 2007, 11:23 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Yeah Bill (Marsh), this blade seems to exhibit far too many Indo/Malay keris features to be a Moro kris. There is even a very well developed (and extented) tikel alis. The gonjo, as Kai already stated, is much more an Indo than a Moro form. And without a good staining i wouldn't even be so sure that the pamor is a low contrast material (i really think you should stain it Bill ). Bill (the other one), i am with Kai and i don't believe this keris necessarily pre-dates the Moro kris. No, a relocated Indo/Malay smith wouldn't "just start making a "kris" because he is on Philippine soil". He would be asked to make one because that is his skill. If indeed this blade was made in Moroland and is old enough, it could be that it still exhibits Malay/Indo traits because it is transitional from Indo to Moro need. Still, if i were a betting man i would wager this blade was made in Indonesian (Sumatra or Sulawesi) early on, but still after the introduction of Moroland kris. Kai, you may still be right about Riau or the Straits, but this type of pamor looks more like what i would associate with Celebes or Sumatra.

28th March 2007, 11:24 PM	#11
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	[QUOTE=kai] I think you have it backwards, kinda: While the kris best known from the Moro evolved from Malay/Indonesian keris, any extant pieces whose construction speaks for an origin in Malaysia or Indonesia seem to be younger than the oldest Moro kris. I'd postulate that these were crafted after (extensive and well established) contact with Moro traders and most likely inspired by Moro trade blades. Hi Kai, We know the "18thC" started out with round tangs & was for stabbing. I think the earliest "kris" was a "18C", if so, who made it. I'll stick with the Bugis as the most likely suspects. Just can't believe the "18thC" was a "starter" edition.