Antique Chilanum dagger ?

Lew · 13th March 2007, 04:43 AM

This ended on ebay reserve was not met. My question is can this dagger be a repro? The acid etch on the blade strikes me as being a feature seen on early 20th century blades?

Lew

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-CHILANUM...QQcmdZViewItem

Tim Simmons · 13th March 2007, 09:27 AM

I think you are right Lew. Pherhaps it could be late 19th century.

ariel · 13th March 2007, 02:10 PM

If you read the description carefully, there is a feeling that it was originally written in Chinese

The implications are obvious...

Jim McDougall · 13th March 2007, 05:51 PM

This is obviously, as noted by Lew, not an antique chilanum, and his observations on the clearly acid etched motif on the blade entirely correct.
However, this dagger, is actually not a reproduction of a chilanum, but a relatively rare form of dagger distinctive to Kafir tribal peoples of what is now Nuristan. These people are most distinctly remembered as recalled in the Rudyard Kipling work, "The Man Who Would be King", later made as a movie by the same title.
What is most interesting is that this item appears along with a jezail, clearly from Khyber regions in Afghanistan. Incidentally, the lock on the gun is indeed an East India Company lock from 1789, however that in no way confirms that these weapons are from that date, while the lock certainly is. It is well known that these lockplates exist in large numbers throughout the Khyber and for that matter India, from the British Raj. Tribal gunsmiths are constantly refurbishing these guns throughout Khyber regions, producing incredibly authentic weapons from jezails of course, to Enfields.

Returning to the dagger, it is an extremely signicant symbolic element of costume for the tribesmen as, much like the Omani jambiya, it represents the warriors manhood and prowess. These are known as 'katara' and are discussed in "The Kafirs of the Hindu Kush" by Max Klimburg (Vol.I & II , Stuttgart, 1999 ). The distinctive pommel which ends in a flat crescent with symmetrical palmettes is characteristic of these daggers. The rhomboid and triangular motif which is etched on the blade is also characteristic of the highly symbolic geometric motif used by these tribes in thier material culture.

While these daggers do turn up in a degree of frequency in Nepal, as I have been told by a collector in Germany who is keenly interested in Kafir items, the associated Afghan provenance seems to fit quite well.

Although much like items that are not necessarily old, perhaps even in degree recent, and as late as 1950's or more, they are remarkably rare, which well explains the authors description citing the chilanum. In fact, the chilanum may well have closely associated ancestry with the katara in that it seems to reflect an essentially degraded anthromorphic form of hilt from ancient bronze and early iron age weapons.

The winner of this piece actually did remarkably well!!!

and is a lucky guy!

All the best,
Jim

Lew · 13th March 2007, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The winner of this piece actually did remarkably well!!!

and is a lucky guy!

All the best,
Jim

Jim

Reserve was not met.

Lew

Jim McDougall · 13th March 2007, 09:10 PM

Didn't notice that Lew....guess the guy who owns it is lucky it didn't sell!

That is of course if he values a pretty rare item from this region.
All the best,
Jim

13th March 2007, 04:43 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Antique Chilanum dagger ? This ended on ebay reserve was not met. My question is can this dagger be a repro? The acid etch on the blade strikes me as being a feature seen on early 20th century blades? Lew http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-CHILANUM...QQcmdZViewItem

13th March 2007, 09:27 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I think you are right Lew. Pherhaps it could be late 19th century.

13th March 2007, 02:10 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If you read the description carefully, there is a feeling that it was originally written in Chinese The implications are obvious...

13th March 2007, 05:51 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	This is obviously, as noted by Lew, not an antique chilanum, and his observations on the clearly acid etched motif on the blade entirely correct. However, this dagger, is actually not a reproduction of a chilanum, but a relatively rare form of dagger distinctive to Kafir tribal peoples of what is now Nuristan. These people are most distinctly remembered as recalled in the Rudyard Kipling work, "The Man Who Would be King", later made as a movie by the same title. What is most interesting is that this item appears along with a jezail, clearly from Khyber regions in Afghanistan. Incidentally, the lock on the gun is indeed an East India Company lock from 1789, however that in no way confirms that these weapons are from that date, while the lock certainly is. It is well known that these lockplates exist in large numbers throughout the Khyber and for that matter India, from the British Raj. Tribal gunsmiths are constantly refurbishing these guns throughout Khyber regions, producing incredibly authentic weapons from jezails of course, to Enfields. Returning to the dagger, it is an extremely signicant symbolic element of costume for the tribesmen as, much like the Omani jambiya, it represents the warriors manhood and prowess. These are known as 'katara' and are discussed in "The Kafirs of the Hindu Kush" by Max Klimburg (Vol.I & II , Stuttgart, 1999 ). The distinctive pommel which ends in a flat crescent with symmetrical palmettes is characteristic of these daggers. The rhomboid and triangular motif which is etched on the blade is also characteristic of the highly symbolic geometric motif used by these tribes in thier material culture. While these daggers do turn up in a degree of frequency in Nepal, as I have been told by a collector in Germany who is keenly interested in Kafir items, the associated Afghan provenance seems to fit quite well. Although much like items that are not necessarily old, perhaps even in degree recent, and as late as 1950's or more, they are remarkably rare, which well explains the authors description citing the chilanum. In fact, the chilanum may well have closely associated ancestry with the katara in that it seems to reflect an essentially degraded anthromorphic form of hilt from ancient bronze and early iron age weapons. The winner of this piece actually did remarkably well!!! and is a lucky guy! All the best, Jim

13th March 2007, 09:10 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Didn't notice that Lew....guess the guy who owns it is lucky it didn't sell! That is of course if he values a pretty rare item from this region. All the best, Jim