japanese sword ( genuine or fake ??? )

ferrylaki · 8th March 2007, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Ferry,

The citric acid will darken the edge considerably if it's tempered. If you have the differential temper, then it may mean you have a forged Japanese sword. If there is a hamon, then Mr. Mishina may be more interested to examine the sword. If there is no temper line, then it could be the mass-produced WWII kind or a newer piece.

Here is an example from one of my blades.

Emanuel

as I know, the mass produced WWII sword also has temper line.
my sword once been cleaned using citric acid, and it remove all the rust.
and at the same time showing some kind of different colour on the edge...left the tiny dots forming a line( like nie ) like this picture. but maybe I should try put some citric acid again, just to make sure...thanks manolo.

regards,
ferry

Emanuel · 8th March 2007, 04:48 AM

Ahh didn't know the wwii were also tempered...anyway give it a try and see.

All the best,
Emanuel

ferrylaki · 8th March 2007, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Ahh didn't know the wwii were also tempered...anyway give it a try and see.

All the best,
Emanuel

reading some articles.
WWII swords are oil tempered.
but I dont know the different.
I'll try....

Battara · 8th March 2007, 10:08 PM

I'm not sure that this is a WWII blade. An oil tempered blade would look frosty at the temper and the pattern is consitent. Oil tempered blades were usually machine made blades and did not even have a hada (grain).

I might try sending it to a US polisher and pay for him to polish a "window", a small section of the blade to see if there is any grain and thus if it is worth a true polish, older or WWII machine made blade.

Another possiblility is to try the nihonto guys over at the Swordforum.com under the Nihon-to section with your pictures.

jwkiernan · 8th March 2007, 11:41 PM

All,

I have been lurking around the forum for some time and thought this would be a good oppertunity to post. Whereas I am no expert in Nihonto, I do have a bit of experience with them.

I will agree with just about everything posted herein and add a few other comments. In my own humble opionion, I too agree that it is an old sword, allbiet mistreated somewhere in its life, but old. The nakago (tang) has good, old blackening rust. The largest mekugiana (tsuka or handle pin hole) in the nakago appears to have been punched (older technique) and also exibits the same color rust as the surface of the nakago (another good indication of age). The smaller , newer mekugiana are drilled via a drill (who'd thought that <G>). It is not uncommon to see two mekugiana drilled in older blades that were later outfitted in gunto or military fillings (very common). The nakagojiri, the very end of the nakago, is also very square, usually the result of shortening (very common).

The lines on the blade are not crisp, but this can be attributed to the abuse it has suffered over the years. If you pull the habaki back and look at the hamachi (notch were the nakago turns into the blade), you can normally tell, roughly how many times a blade has been sharpened (the less of a notch, the more times it has been sharpened....usually.

So, the long and the short of it, in my opionion, for what it is worth, you have an old, authentic blade. Can it be, or better yet, should it be brought back to life...that's up to you (and your wallet!!<G>). Looking at the photos, I didn't see any openings in the blade, loose laminations or cracks....that is good thing, on the downside, it is very pitted, especially in the kissaki area (tip). There are several reputable polishers (togi) here in the USA that have studied in Japan under master togi's. Polishing a Japanese sword should be left up to someone who knows what they are doing, remember, polishing a blade is an irreversable, destructive process. Sending to Japan is a risky, and a very expensive affair. Having someone do a window polish as someone suggested is a good idea. It will help determine if the blade is worth the investment of a full polish or not (and your blade definetly needs a full polish), show the hamon (temper line) as well as the hada (forging pattern). However, once again, make sure it is someone who is qualified to do the work!! You can make a blade worthless if an untrained person tries to polish it!!

I have definetly rattled on long enough. I hope it has helped. Take care .

My best reguards to all,

John

ferrylaki · 9th March 2007, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I'm not sure that this is a WWII blade. An oil tempered blade would look frosty at the temper and the pattern is consitent. Oil tempered blades were usually machine made blades and did not even have a hada (grain).

I might try sending it to a US polisher and pay for him to polish a "window", a small section of the blade to see if there is any grain and thus if it is worth a true polish, older or WWII machine made blade.

Another possiblility is to try the nihonto guys over at the Swordforum.com under the Nihon-to section with your pictures.

thanks battara,
for this moment I just gonna keep the sword.
I have no experience sending sword overseas, do you have any suggestion which polisher I should send my sword to?

tsubame1 · 10th March 2007, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

thanks battara,
for this moment I just gonna keep the sword.
I have no experience sending sword overseas, do you have any suggestion which polisher I should send my sword to?

Hi Ferrylaki.

Even if no expert would make a definitive reply based on these poor pictures
I've no reputation to loose so here are my 2 cents :

your sword *possibly* is an antique one (pre WWII) that was mounted in
Shingunto way (WWII officer mounts) hence the two smaller holes before
and after the original bigger one. The one toward the blade is the one that
originally hosted the screw-like Mekugi, the one near the end of the tang
hosted the "Sarute", a ring holding a knot changing in colors accordingly to
the officer's rank. Might be the sword has been shortened for this purpose,
(to fullfill the army's requirements or for mounting reasons) as the shape of
the tang seems odd and the absence of another older mekugiana (hole for
retaining pin) suggests it hasn't been shortened in ancient times for
remounting.
You can eventually confirm/deny this telling us something about the
provenance and the mounting if info available.

Your sword has been bring back by some GI's and later left in oblivion till to
begun very rusty.
Someone not trained to Togi (traditional japanese polishing) attempted to
give it some dignity but destroyed the lines and possibly exposed the inner
steel (you show only one side of the blade). Then, in some way the sword
reached your hands (gift/purchase/inherited).

The matter if it worths the money of a traditional polishing is a personal one.
I've lost money on some swords that appealed to me but that
weren't economically worth the polishing. I'm a romantic.

Still exists the possibility your sword is a machine made one or a fake.
These lines are written at 02,17 PM italian time and online judgements that
pretends to be accurate (on NihonTo, at least) are simply a foolish thing.

Cheers.

tsubame1 · 10th March 2007, 11:23 AM

The more I watch at it, the less I'm convinced.
The difference in dimension between the mekugiana is something that puzzle
me.
Usually multiple ancient mekugiana have roughly the same dimensions

but even ancestral blades mounted in Shingunto are not different :

http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_023.htm

and Shinshinto handachi mounted swords (Handachi is an Edo period mounting similar to Shingunto, with Sarute) are similar in placement but still with the
same larger dimensions in the holes :

This last has not been shortened. I'm sure because it's mine.

8th March 2007, 11:41 PM	#5
jwkiernan Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 37	muimei Katana sword All, I have been lurking around the forum for some time and thought this would be a good oppertunity to post. Whereas I am no expert in Nihonto, I do have a bit of experience with them. I will agree with just about everything posted herein and add a few other comments. In my own humble opionion, I too agree that it is an old sword, allbiet mistreated somewhere in its life, but old. The nakago (tang) has good, old blackening rust. The largest mekugiana (tsuka or handle pin hole) in the nakago appears to have been punched (older technique) and also exibits the same color rust as the surface of the nakago (another good indication of age). The smaller , newer mekugiana are drilled via a drill (who'd thought that <G>). It is not uncommon to see two mekugiana drilled in older blades that were later outfitted in gunto or military fillings (very common). The nakagojiri, the very end of the nakago, is also very square, usually the result of shortening (very common). The lines on the blade are not crisp, but this can be attributed to the abuse it has suffered over the years. If you pull the habaki back and look at the hamachi (notch were the nakago turns into the blade), you can normally tell, roughly how many times a blade has been sharpened (the less of a notch, the more times it has been sharpened....usually. So, the long and the short of it, in my opionion, for what it is worth, you have an old, authentic blade. Can it be, or better yet, should it be brought back to life...that's up to you (and your wallet!!<G>). Looking at the photos, I didn't see any openings in the blade, loose laminations or cracks....that is good thing, on the downside, it is very pitted, especially in the kissaki area (tip). There are several reputable polishers (togi) here in the USA that have studied in Japan under master togi's. Polishing a Japanese sword should be left up to someone who knows what they are doing, remember, polishing a blade is an irreversable, destructive process. Sending to Japan is a risky, and a very expensive affair. Having someone do a window polish as someone suggested is a good idea. It will help determine if the blade is worth the investment of a full polish or not (and your blade definetly needs a full polish), show the hamon (temper line) as well as the hada (forging pattern). However, once again, make sure it is someone who is qualified to do the work!! You can make a blade worthless if an untrained person tries to polish it!! I have definetly rattled on long enough. I hope it has helped. Take care . My best reguards to all, John

8th March 2007, 04:48 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Ahh didn't know the wwii were also tempered...anyway give it a try and see. All the best, Emanuel

8th March 2007, 10:08 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I'm not sure that this is a WWII blade. An oil tempered blade would look frosty at the temper and the pattern is consitent. Oil tempered blades were usually machine made blades and did not even have a hada (grain). I might try sending it to a US polisher and pay for him to polish a "window", a small section of the blade to see if there is any grain and thus if it is worth a true polish, older or WWII machine made blade. Another possiblility is to try the nihonto guys over at the Swordforum.com under the Nihon-to section with your pictures.

10th March 2007, 11:23 AM	#8
tsubame1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Magenta, Northern Italy Posts: 123	The more I watch at it, the less I'm convinced. The difference in dimension between the mekugiana is something that puzzle me. Usually multiple ancient mekugiana have roughly the same dimensions but even ancestral blades mounted in Shingunto are not different : http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_023.htm and Shinshinto handachi mounted swords (Handachi is an Edo period mounting similar to Shingunto, with Sarute) are similar in placement but still with the same larger dimensions in the holes : This last has not been shortened. I'm sure because it's mine.