steel and iron weaponry of the american natives.........

Emanuel · 27th February 2007, 03:53 AM

Hello,

Yanyeidi, the ritual involving Keet Gwalaa sounds a lot like the talismanic properties attributed to some Indonesian keris - almost word for word - I'm sure some members here will recognize this. It's fascinating how such similar beliefs evolved in such far appart places. I totally agree with Tim's view, I don't see why native American cultures couldn't have reached the same functional conclusions reached by Europeans.
Magnificent works, these! I will look up the first nations collection at the ROM.

Regards,
Emanuel

David · 27th February 2007, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Yanyeidi, the ritual involving Keet Gwalaa sounds a lot like the talismanic properties attributed to some Indonesian keris - almost word for word - I'm sure some members here will recognize this. It's fascinating how such similar beliefs evolved in such far appart places.

Hi Emmanuel. I would very much appreciate if you would expand upon this and give actual examples of keris rituals which are the similar to the description for this Tlingit dagger.

Emanuel · 27th February 2007, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello,

...a lot like the talismanic properties attributed to some Indonesian keris...

Hi David!

I didn't write specifically keris rituals, but there were similar powers attributed to certain keris: one could kill a man simply by pointing the keris at them. I do not recall where I've read these specific words, but I can certainly look it up and post the reference.
Further comparison may be made via the need to keep the dagger hidden or covered - this is true for revered pusaka, no?

In both cases, the talismanic object is dagger-shaped, holds great power of life and death, and is extremely important to his/its owner/tribe.

I will read up on the Tlingit, but I wonder whether copper had a particular magical/powerful significance - in the same vein as the keris pamor I mean.

All the best,
Emanuel

Tim Simmons · 1st March 2007, 06:31 PM

The term "pointing the bone" to deliver harm comes to mind. When I get my PC running as normal I will post a picture of an Australian tribesmen doing just this.

Tim Simmons · 5th March 2007, 11:24 AM

"Point The Bone" and bone pointing sticks.

Billman · 3rd December 2010, 08:42 PM

Ref Meteoric Iron - the Cape York Meteorite from Greenland was used by the locals to make tools:

"The 407-kilogram (897-pound) fragment of Cape York known as the Dog was extensively hammered by Inuit workers—just like the fragment called the Woman, which was found about 30 meters (100 feet) away. Both of these fragments were hammered much more than Ahnighito; experts are not entirely sure why.

According to arctic explorer Robert Peary, who located the three fragments of Cape York now on display in this hall, native Greenlanders recounted a story that these meteorites were once a sewing woman and her dog who were cast from heaven by an evil spirit. Ahnighito was the tent that sheltered them. Some people have speculated that this story may have been invented for Peary's benefit.

HAMMERING AWAY
Although iron meteorites are incredibly hard, the Inuit people successfully chipped off pieces of the fragment known as the Woman using hammerstones made of basalt. The iron was then used to make tools such as knives and harpoons.

When explorer Robert Peary located the Woman in 1894 with the help of an Inuit guide, some 10,000 hammerstones were scattered around the three-ton meteorite. Over the years, Inuit people had carried these basalt stones to the area from far away because the rocks found naturally around the Woman were too soft to break iron."

link: http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/perm...t/capeyork.php

The theory is that once one tribe had mastered the art of cold working an iron rich meteor the knowledge spread acroos the whole of their territory from Alaska to Greenland - many meteors can be found in the Artic tundra regions...

10,000 hammer stones is a lot of hammering - and potentially a lot of tools or weapons...

31 tonnes is a lot of iron...

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_York_meteorite

And don't forget the Vikings reached the Americas about 500 years before the official discovery - they had iron and steel tools and the technology of making them - they had established colonies in Greenland by 1000 AD.... and co-existed with the local Inuit for several centuries

fearn · 4th December 2010, 02:01 AM

hi Billman,

Good to see this again. It's more detail than I noted back in entry #13 or so.

Since we're updating this thread, I think I've got an answer for why the Andeans never got to iron metallurgy. While I think it's possible to smelt iron at high altitude, I'm pretty sure that the Andeans weren't able to make a fire hot enough to smelt iron ore.

There's an interesting, unexplored thread here about the development of progressively hotter fires as a prerequisite for working different metals. Copper needs a hotter fire than gold, bronze hotter than copper, and iron hotter than bronze, etc (up to the current metal-glasses of the last few decades).

Some of this pyrotechnology can be appropriated from potters (a kiln for porcelain is a lot hotter than one for terra cotta. But if a society hasn't developed things like bellows and charcoal (or coke) for fuel, forging iron isn't going to be possible either.

I don't have a lot of data or examples on this, but it's worth exploring. I'm looking for examples of bronze-aged porcelain, and Iron Age people who only made low-fire clay pots. Any thoughts?

Best,

F

Best,

F

aiontay · 4th December 2010, 02:34 AM

There was limited iron working and blacksmith in the 18th Century, at least in the SE United States. I know of one tomahawk forged by a Chickasaw in the 1760s (apparently the British taught several Chickasaws how to forge).

As for potlatches, I would definitely defer to Yanyeidi, but I will note that gift giving is very much a part of Native American culture. People are always giving away at powwows, ceremonials etc. I always like to point out that on occasions when white people get gifts (birthdays, graduations etc) Indians give gifts.

5th March 2007, 11:24 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	"Point The Bone" and bone pointing sticks. Attached Images

27th February 2007, 03:53 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Yanyeidi, the ritual involving Keet Gwalaa sounds a lot like the talismanic properties attributed to some Indonesian keris - almost word for word - I'm sure some members here will recognize this. It's fascinating how such similar beliefs evolved in such far appart places. I totally agree with Tim's view, I don't see why native American cultures couldn't have reached the same functional conclusions reached by Europeans. Magnificent works, these! I will look up the first nations collection at the ROM. Regards, Emanuel

1st March 2007, 06:31 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	The term "pointing the bone" to deliver harm comes to mind. When I get my PC running as normal I will post a picture of an Australian tribesmen doing just this.

3rd December 2010, 08:42 PM	#6
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Ref Meteoric Iron - the Cape York Meteorite from Greenland was used by the locals to make tools: "The 407-kilogram (897-pound) fragment of Cape York known as the Dog was extensively hammered by Inuit workers—just like the fragment called the Woman, which was found about 30 meters (100 feet) away. Both of these fragments were hammered much more than Ahnighito; experts are not entirely sure why. According to arctic explorer Robert Peary, who located the three fragments of Cape York now on display in this hall, native Greenlanders recounted a story that these meteorites were once a sewing woman and her dog who were cast from heaven by an evil spirit. Ahnighito was the tent that sheltered them. Some people have speculated that this story may have been invented for Peary's benefit. HAMMERING AWAY Although iron meteorites are incredibly hard, the Inuit people successfully chipped off pieces of the fragment known as the Woman using hammerstones made of basalt. The iron was then used to make tools such as knives and harpoons. When explorer Robert Peary located the Woman in 1894 with the help of an Inuit guide, some 10,000 hammerstones were scattered around the three-ton meteorite. Over the years, Inuit people had carried these basalt stones to the area from far away because the rocks found naturally around the Woman were too soft to break iron." link: http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/perm...t/capeyork.php The theory is that once one tribe had mastered the art of cold working an iron rich meteor the knowledge spread acroos the whole of their territory from Alaska to Greenland - many meteors can be found in the Artic tundra regions... 10,000 hammer stones is a lot of hammering - and potentially a lot of tools or weapons... 31 tonnes is a lot of iron... link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_York_meteorite And don't forget the Vikings reached the Americas about 500 years before the official discovery - they had iron and steel tools and the technology of making them - they had established colonies in Greenland by 1000 AD.... and co-existed with the local Inuit for several centuries

4th December 2010, 02:01 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	hi Billman, Good to see this again. It's more detail than I noted back in entry #13 or so. Since we're updating this thread, I think I've got an answer for why the Andeans never got to iron metallurgy. While I think it's possible to smelt iron at high altitude, I'm pretty sure that the Andeans weren't able to make a fire hot enough to smelt iron ore. There's an interesting, unexplored thread here about the development of progressively hotter fires as a prerequisite for working different metals. Copper needs a hotter fire than gold, bronze hotter than copper, and iron hotter than bronze, etc (up to the current metal-glasses of the last few decades). Some of this pyrotechnology can be appropriated from potters (a kiln for porcelain is a lot hotter than one for terra cotta. But if a society hasn't developed things like bellows and charcoal (or coke) for fuel, forging iron isn't going to be possible either. I don't have a lot of data or examples on this, but it's worth exploring. I'm looking for examples of bronze-aged porcelain, and Iron Age people who only made low-fire clay pots. Any thoughts? Best, F Best, F

4th December 2010, 02:34 AM	#8
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	There was limited iron working and blacksmith in the 18th Century, at least in the SE United States. I know of one tomahawk forged by a Chickasaw in the 1760s (apparently the British taught several Chickasaws how to forge). As for potlatches, I would definitely defer to Yanyeidi, but I will note that gift giving is very much a part of Native American culture. People are always giving away at powwows, ceremonials etc. I always like to point out that on occasions when white people get gifts (birthdays, graduations etc) Indians give gifts.