A Moro Kriss...or Not???

Ian · 21st February 2005, 11:46 PM

Federico:

Kalimantan, strictly speaking, refers to the Indonesian (previously Dutch) portion of the island formerly called Borneo. That would exclude Malaysian (previously British) "Northern Borneo," now referred to as Sarawak and Sabah, and the independent state of Brunei.

When Mr. van Zonneveld speaks of Kalimantan, I think he refers to the Indonesian portion of Borneo because Indonesian weapons are the focus of his book. Perhaps he could comment again here, as he has in the past, to settle any confusion.

Ian.

CharlesS · 22nd February 2005, 01:18 AM

I agree Ian. I think Zonneveld makes it clear that such swords may belong to to Sulu and other Philippine regions, but leaves open the possibility of Indonesian use as well, most especially in Borneo. Of course that leaves open the aforementioned queston...were the influences 'from' or 'to' Borneo??It's just shame that there are no absolutes that identify the location of origin.

Thanks for all the input everyone!!

Federico · 22nd February 2005, 03:02 AM

Tausug settlements can be found much further south than modern Malay controlled North Borneo. On pg. 103 of James Francis Warren's book Sulu zone, there is map of Tausug settlements, with one as far south Tanjungredeb in the map included in Zonneveld's book. As far Zonneveld's note in his book on sundang pg. 133 he lists locations and not people/sultanates (eg. Kalimantan, Sulawesi, Sulu Archipelago, Philippines) I would go as far as to say he is leaving it open rather than assigning a particular type (eg. this is a Kalimantan kris or Sulu kris,etc...). Considering his alternate names for the Sundang are sondang and sulu keris, and that he has question marks by two of the Kalimantan sundangs, it would seem things are not so cut and dry as to say he is automatically excluding Tausug/Sulu colonial origins when he speaks of these regions. It would be nice if he could clarify. However, if he is excluding such origins, it brings us to the question of which other groups would be making these items in these areas. The Bugis inhabit the regions South of Sulu colonies in Borneo. Then we get the Dayaks groups. Etc... I would argue that the origin of these kris as being from either group as highly unlikely given their own weapons cultures.

21st February 2005, 11:46 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Federico: Kalimantan, strictly speaking, refers to the Indonesian (previously Dutch) portion of the island formerly called Borneo. That would exclude Malaysian (previously British) "Northern Borneo," now referred to as Sarawak and Sabah, and the independent state of Brunei. When Mr. van Zonneveld speaks of Kalimantan, I think he refers to the Indonesian portion of Borneo because Indonesian weapons are the focus of his book. Perhaps he could comment again here, as he has in the past, to settle any confusion. Ian.

22nd February 2005, 01:18 AM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I agree Ian. I think Zonneveld makes it clear that such swords may belong to to Sulu and other Philippine regions, but leaves open the possibility of Indonesian use as well, most especially in Borneo. Of course that leaves open the aforementioned queston...were the influences 'from' or 'to' Borneo??It's just shame that there are no absolutes that identify the location of origin. Thanks for all the input everyone!!

22nd February 2005, 03:02 AM	#3
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Tausug settlements can be found much further south than modern Malay controlled North Borneo. On pg. 103 of James Francis Warren's book Sulu zone, there is map of Tausug settlements, with one as far south Tanjungredeb in the map included in Zonneveld's book. As far Zonneveld's note in his book on sundang pg. 133 he lists locations and not people/sultanates (eg. Kalimantan, Sulawesi, Sulu Archipelago, Philippines) I would go as far as to say he is leaving it open rather than assigning a particular type (eg. this is a Kalimantan kris or Sulu kris,etc...). Considering his alternate names for the Sundang are sondang and sulu keris, and that he has question marks by two of the Kalimantan sundangs, it would seem things are not so cut and dry as to say he is automatically excluding Tausug/Sulu colonial origins when he speaks of these regions. It would be nice if he could clarify. However, if he is excluding such origins, it brings us to the question of which other groups would be making these items in these areas. The Bugis inhabit the regions South of Sulu colonies in Borneo. Then we get the Dayaks groups. Etc... I would argue that the origin of these kris as being from either group as highly unlikely given their own weapons cultures.