A PLUG BAYONET

fernando · 10th February 2007, 09:42 PM

Not necessarily an ethnographic piece ... depends on the perspective.
However presumptiously a nice piece.
Anyone care for an opinnion ?
Origin, Portugal or Spain ... or other ?
Age, XVIII or XIX century ?
Thanks in advance.
fernando

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2007, 06:39 AM

Hi Fernando,
Ethnographic or not, I've always considered the plug bayonet a very intriguing edged weapon, and particularly those from Spain, which were likely the longest enduring in use. While as military weapons they of course became obsolete in the 18th century, as hunting arms they continued. Also, it was characteristic practice in Spain to use salvaged sword blades, much in the manner of dirks, to create these traditional weapons.

This being the case, it would appear that the mounts on this piece are relatively modern, and the blade does seem to have some age, probably early 19th century. The notched carving on the back of the blade would suggest that characteristic seen on many Andulusian examples, as well as the decorated brass ricasso plate also a favored feature (see "The Plug Bayonet", R.D.C. Evans, West Yorkshire, England, 2002, p.174).

Although these plug bayonets obviously are not able to be used in the intended manner in the barrels of more modern guns, they have gained status as a hunting weapon reminiscent of the traditional form, worn in hunting knife fashion.

Interesting piece Fernando, and an edged weapon form seldom discussed so glad to see it posted!

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 11th February 2007, 09:21 PM

Hi Jim
Thank you so much for your comprehensive input.
All the best for you and yours.
fernando

spiral · 11th February 2007, 10:10 PM

I dont know whether it helps , probably not,
but Handle looks like nice mediteranian grown evergreen oak. very hard & heavy.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2007, 12:41 AM

You're very welcome Fernando, glad I could find info on this nice piece!

Spiral, thank you for adding that! I was actually wondering what type of wood that would be, and honestly know zero on this kind of data, which adds even more support to the attribution. Appreciate the input very much

All the best,
Jim

spiral · 12th February 2007, 03:17 AM

Thankyou Jim, the medulary rays are quite identifiable realy, I have a spanish marking gauge & plane of the same timber, & have also cut & split for firewood a miss shaped one, Grown in Devon, England as a Victorean experiment for ship building timber. {It splits & warps to much when grown fast in rich wet English farmland soil.}

Spiral

fernando · 12th February 2007, 09:34 PM

Thank you Spiral.
So its Azinheira ( Holm ) a variant of Carvalho ( Oak ).
I will follow that.
Kind regards
fernando

The Double D · 13th February 2007, 03:35 AM

Has the handle on this bayonet been replaced? It just doesn't look right to me, to much taper

fernando · 13th February 2007, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

Has the handle on this bayonet been replaced? It just doesn't look right to me, to much taper

It has already been observed above that the mountings are of a later date, although not necessarily ungenuine. To my humble view there is nothing wrong with the peened tang handle , as i see examples in the Net with a similar tapering.

spiral · 15th February 2007, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you Spiral.
So its Azinheira ( Holm ) a variant of Carvalho ( Oak ).
I will follow that.
Kind regards
fernando

Indeed so Fernando! we call it Holm oak as well.

Spiral

The Double D · 16th February 2007, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

It has already been observed above that the mountings are of a later date, although not necessarily ungenuine. To my humble view there is nothing wrong with the peened tang handle , as i see examples in the Net with a similar tapering.

I brought it up because the plug bayonets I have seen have a more parallel lower section to fit in the bore more solidly and snuggly.

Could this not be a plug bayonet but something else of the same family?

fernando · 16th February 2007, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Indeed so Fernando! we call it Holm oak as well.

It all makes sense, considering your previous posting. I have checked the woods used in naval architecture in the old days ( Portuguese discoveries ). Holm ( azinho ) was used in the small parts of ships skeletons. Very hard stuff. I also think i remember seeing this wood, full of vains, in carpenter planes.

fernando · 16th February 2007, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

Could this not be a plug bayonet but something else of the same family?

In the meantime i have managed to check with some more experts in this matter.
This being a plug or hunting bayonet, the spirit remains the same. It has a stylized handle all right, but still is consistent and within the family. It could be because, at a prior late stage, musket barrels became narrower, and at a further late stage the actual use on weapons pluging was dropped but the handle style prevailed in hunting bayonets, as also in a certain manner observed by Jim.

The Double D · 17th February 2007, 03:04 AM

That makes a lot of sense Fernando...part of the evolution of the knife and its use.

10th February 2007, 09:42 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A PLUG BAYONET Not necessarily an ethnographic piece ... depends on the perspective. However presumptiously a nice piece. Anyone care for an opinnion ? Origin, Portugal or Spain ... or other ? Age, XVIII or XIX century ? Thanks in advance. fernando Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 10th February 2007 at 11:55 PM.

11th February 2007, 06:39 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Fernando, Ethnographic or not, I've always considered the plug bayonet a very intriguing edged weapon, and particularly those from Spain, which were likely the longest enduring in use. While as military weapons they of course became obsolete in the 18th century, as hunting arms they continued. Also, it was characteristic practice in Spain to use salvaged sword blades, much in the manner of dirks, to create these traditional weapons. This being the case, it would appear that the mounts on this piece are relatively modern, and the blade does seem to have some age, probably early 19th century. The notched carving on the back of the blade would suggest that characteristic seen on many Andulusian examples, as well as the decorated brass ricasso plate also a favored feature (see "The Plug Bayonet", R.D.C. Evans, West Yorkshire, England, 2002, p.174). Although these plug bayonets obviously are not able to be used in the intended manner in the barrels of more modern guns, they have gained status as a hunting weapon reminiscent of the traditional form, worn in hunting knife fashion. Interesting piece Fernando, and an edged weapon form seldom discussed so glad to see it posted! All the best, Jim

11th February 2007, 09:21 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim Thank you so much for your comprehensive input. All the best for you and yours. fernando

11th February 2007, 10:10 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I dont know whether it helps , probably not, but Handle looks like nice mediteranian grown evergreen oak. very hard & heavy. Spiral

12th February 2007, 12:41 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	You're very welcome Fernando, glad I could find info on this nice piece! Spiral, thank you for adding that! I was actually wondering what type of wood that would be, and honestly know zero on this kind of data, which adds even more support to the attribution. Appreciate the input very much All the best, Jim

12th February 2007, 03:17 AM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thankyou Jim, the medulary rays are quite identifiable realy, I have a spanish marking gauge & plane of the same timber, & have also cut & split for firewood a miss shaped one, Grown in Devon, England as a Victorean experiment for ship building timber. {It splits & warps to much when grown fast in rich wet English farmland soil.} Spiral

12th February 2007, 09:34 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Spiral. So its Azinheira ( Holm ) a variant of Carvalho ( Oak ). I will follow that. Kind regards fernando

13th February 2007, 03:35 AM	#8
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Has the handle on this bayonet been replaced? It just doesn't look right to me, to much taper

17th February 2007, 03:04 AM	#14
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	That makes a lot of sense Fernando...part of the evolution of the knife and its use.