clunker saif?

ariel · 14th February 2007, 02:24 AM

Jim,
I am confused: where does the info about linear arrangement of the "eyelash " sign being in any way characteristic of Caucasian blades come from?
All similar markings on Caucasian swords I've ever seen are either single or arranged as an opposing pair. Often, they were flanked by 3 dots on each side, locally called " little bees".
This mark is called Gurda ( or Gorda), the origin of which is uncertain and takes about 10 pages in the Askhabov's book " Chechen Weapons". They range from "Gora Da", ie "the possessor of might" in memory of a legendary nameless master from Ayttkhalloi, name of an aul (village) Gordali, name of a master from Gordaloi named Gorda, a word "gura da", ie " owner of a trap" ( teeth marks) or a shout " gurda" ( " I'll show you!") with which one master once allegedly cut his opponent in half.
Likely, the influence of a similar Genoese mark was involved. Genoese colonies on the Black Sea imported blades to Circassians.
I have yet to encounter a Caucasian blade with a linear orientation of multiple Gurda marks.
I would really appreciate a reference.

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2007, 03:17 AM

Hi Ariel,
The Ashkabov book is an excellent reference, and this is exactly where I saw illustrations of these blades, which I had actually seen on a Khevsur sword.
Interesting on the term 'gurda', which I have been under the impression simply is a term used to denote high quality or valued blade, and as you note the etymology is unclear.

The 'Kaldam' sword, apparantly referring generally to certain swords used by Chechens and Khevsurs, and noting the 'gurda' blades, is described in Ashkabov (p.75) and the illustration of the blade has the linear 'sickle' type half circles the length of the blade along the back. The same blade form, a straight, single edged blade with the same linear motif of these markings, is shown on p.114, as a blade from Ataghi (the example on extreme right).

While the use of these markings as motif is not addressed in the text, it does seem apparant that it did exist on this particular blade form. The Genoan marking, as you note, certainly was copied in many cases, and this did derive from those Genoan colonies. It is interesting how widely these blades were diffused by such trade.

Although it is difficult to see clearly in the illustrations, that these half circles are actually imitations of the toothed half circles, close examination as in the example I have seen did reveal that they indeed were.

Sorry for not specifying the reference. I have seen the same use of this half circle motif on at least one example of an unusual sword blade from India, and I will try to locate that reference. I think it was an auction catalog.

All the best,
Jim

Pukka Bundook · 14th February 2007, 03:57 AM

Well, Much of this is a bit over my head, not having reference books on the subject.
I had been led to believe that Morrocan sa'ifs did not have ring-guards, whilst Zanzibar saifs did, so my logic figured as this had perpendicular projections (Like a chopped off ring guard) this must be a kind of Zanzibar sword.

Also, the Berber saifs/nimchas on the forum here are much different to this one, (no guard at all) Yet both appear to have been used by the Berber people?,
Could anyone enlighten me, and please, excuse my ignorance!

FenrisWolf · 14th February 2007, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Well, Much of this is a bit over my head, not having reference books on the subject.
I had been led to believe that Morrocan sa'ifs did not have ring-guards, whilst Zanzibar saifs did, so my logic figured as this had perpendicular projections (Like a chopped off ring guard) this must be a kind of Zanzibar sword.

Also, the Berber saifs/nimchas on the forum here are much different to this one, (no guard at all) Yet both appear to have been used by the Berber people?,
Could anyone enlighten me, and please, excuse my ignorance!

While my own knowledge is limited, keep in mind that when one speaks of 'Berber' and 'Moroccan', one is speaking of a number of different tribes, each with their own identity and preferences as to weapons. One might as well say 'Native American' and expect the Iroquois to be carrying the same weapons as the Apache.

Even within the same tribe there can be a huge variation of weapons. There have been a number of discussions of the flyssa on this board, yet it is a weapon that only appeared briefly in its most recognized form, from the early 1800s through the early 1900s, and that was just the Kayble. How many other variations were carried by the different tribes probably no one will ever know for certain.

katana · 14th February 2007, 11:35 AM

I may be 'digging up' old ground but the 'guard' shape suggests 'Allah'.
Fist pic is 'Allah' , second is the symbol on its side to match hilt of the third picture.

Emanuel · 14th February 2007, 05:13 PM

Nicely spotted, David!

The Acehnese rencong has a bism'allah carved at the base of the blade, so this certainly has precedent. Your observation could be correct, but keep in mind that the form is also derived from one that had nothing to do with "allah". Could be an armourer's aethetic sense at work, adapting existing shapes to new meanings.

Emanuel

ariel · 14th February 2007, 10:53 PM

I think we are seeing things that are not there: kind of "Lady Mondegreen" reading.
Algerean Nimchas had only 2 langets ( or are they bent quillons?) , and Zanzibarean swords had in effect 2 langets and a ring. Both would absolutely preclude "reading" the configuration of the handguard as "Allah".
If we follow the same reasoning, European D-guards would stand for " Dominus" or " Deus", and Albanian Khandjars, with their diagonally incised handles would hint at " Virgo Maria"

For those not familiar with Lady Mondegreen, here is the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen

Mark · 16th February 2007, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I may be 'digging up' old ground but the 'guard' shape suggests 'Allah'.
Fist pic is 'Allah' , second is the symbol on its side to match hilt of the third picture.

I see the resemblance, but for that matter it also resembles the sacred syllable "Om" (aum):

katana · 16th February 2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

I see the resemblance, but for that matter it also resembles the sacred syllable "Om" (aum):

One side Allah.....the otherside the sacred 'Om'

Perhaps the maker of this hilt wanted to 'double the divine protection' for the owner

Well noted, Mark

14th February 2007, 11:35 AM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I may be 'digging up' old ground but the 'guard' shape suggests 'Allah'. Fist pic is 'Allah' , second is the symbol on its side to match hilt of the third picture. Attached Images

14th February 2007, 02:24 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, I am confused: where does the info about linear arrangement of the "eyelash " sign being in any way characteristic of Caucasian blades come from? All similar markings on Caucasian swords I've ever seen are either single or arranged as an opposing pair. Often, they were flanked by 3 dots on each side, locally called " little bees". This mark is called Gurda ( or Gorda), the origin of which is uncertain and takes about 10 pages in the Askhabov's book " Chechen Weapons". They range from "Gora Da", ie "the possessor of might" in memory of a legendary nameless master from Ayttkhalloi, name of an aul (village) Gordali, name of a master from Gordaloi named Gorda, a word "gura da", ie " owner of a trap" ( teeth marks) or a shout " gurda" ( " I'll show you!") with which one master once allegedly cut his opponent in half. Likely, the influence of a similar Genoese mark was involved. Genoese colonies on the Black Sea imported blades to Circassians. I have yet to encounter a Caucasian blade with a linear orientation of multiple Gurda marks. I would really appreciate a reference.

14th February 2007, 03:17 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Ariel, The Ashkabov book is an excellent reference, and this is exactly where I saw illustrations of these blades, which I had actually seen on a Khevsur sword. Interesting on the term 'gurda', which I have been under the impression simply is a term used to denote high quality or valued blade, and as you note the etymology is unclear. The 'Kaldam' sword, apparantly referring generally to certain swords used by Chechens and Khevsurs, and noting the 'gurda' blades, is described in Ashkabov (p.75) and the illustration of the blade has the linear 'sickle' type half circles the length of the blade along the back. The same blade form, a straight, single edged blade with the same linear motif of these markings, is shown on p.114, as a blade from Ataghi (the example on extreme right). While the use of these markings as motif is not addressed in the text, it does seem apparant that it did exist on this particular blade form. The Genoan marking, as you note, certainly was copied in many cases, and this did derive from those Genoan colonies. It is interesting how widely these blades were diffused by such trade. Although it is difficult to see clearly in the illustrations, that these half circles are actually imitations of the toothed half circles, close examination as in the example I have seen did reveal that they indeed were. Sorry for not specifying the reference. I have seen the same use of this half circle motif on at least one example of an unusual sword blade from India, and I will try to locate that reference. I think it was an auction catalog. All the best, Jim

14th February 2007, 03:57 AM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Well, Much of this is a bit over my head, not having reference books on the subject. I had been led to believe that Morrocan sa'ifs did not have ring-guards, whilst Zanzibar saifs did, so my logic figured as this had perpendicular projections (Like a chopped off ring guard) this must be a kind of Zanzibar sword. Also, the Berber saifs/nimchas on the forum here are much different to this one, (no guard at all) Yet both appear to have been used by the Berber people?, Could anyone enlighten me, and please, excuse my ignorance!

14th February 2007, 05:13 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Nicely spotted, David! The Acehnese rencong has a bism'allah carved at the base of the blade, so this certainly has precedent. Your observation could be correct, but keep in mind that the form is also derived from one that had nothing to do with "allah". Could be an armourer's aethetic sense at work, adapting existing shapes to new meanings. Emanuel

14th February 2007, 10:53 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think we are seeing things that are not there: kind of "Lady Mondegreen" reading. Algerean Nimchas had only 2 langets ( or are they bent quillons?) , and Zanzibarean swords had in effect 2 langets and a ring. Both would absolutely preclude "reading" the configuration of the handguard as "Allah". If we follow the same reasoning, European D-guards would stand for " Dominus" or " Deus", and Albanian Khandjars, with their diagonally incised handles would hint at " Virgo Maria" For those not familiar with Lady Mondegreen, here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen