clunker saif?

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2007, 01:45 AM

Hi Richard,
Sorry to come in on this so late, apparantly I missed it

As has been noted, this is a Moroccan sa'if , more commonly termed by collectors a 'nimcha' (thanks very much Rhys Michael for the reference

.

Actually this is a most interesting example, and as I always implore, please leave it alone unless there is active rust. These weapons were often refurbished numerous times during thier working lives, and sometimes the work of the armorers is amateurish, making it difficult to discern these from the contrived workings of devious collector/dealers. I always feel better presuming the former, and analyzing the example with the state it is in.

The blade on this, clearly heavily worked over, appears to be a 19th century military sabre blade, with these markings added by an armorer attempting to duplicate other trade blade markings. Most fascinating is that the half circle (sickle marks) aligned along the blade as motif in linear fashion is seen only on Caucasian blades of the second half 19th c. and typically attributed to Chechen manufacture. The name stamped in the blade attempts to say 'Genoa', the blades which were associated with the origins on the familiar sickle marks which of course are well known seen back to back in a single pair, not used as motif as seen here.

This may well be a tribal piece from the Maghreb, the rounded tip on the blade may suggest further into the Sahara where of course, these are seen on takoubas. It seems most likely to be a late incarnation, probably into the early 20th c. While the 'nimcha' is typically considered more of a coastal weapon, in these later times, trade routes and heightened tribal and colonial activity certainly increased the diffusion of weapons.

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 14th February 2007, 02:24 AM

Jim,
I am confused: where does the info about linear arrangement of the "eyelash " sign being in any way characteristic of Caucasian blades come from?
All similar markings on Caucasian swords I've ever seen are either single or arranged as an opposing pair. Often, they were flanked by 3 dots on each side, locally called " little bees".
This mark is called Gurda ( or Gorda), the origin of which is uncertain and takes about 10 pages in the Askhabov's book " Chechen Weapons". They range from "Gora Da", ie "the possessor of might" in memory of a legendary nameless master from Ayttkhalloi, name of an aul (village) Gordali, name of a master from Gordaloi named Gorda, a word "gura da", ie " owner of a trap" ( teeth marks) or a shout " gurda" ( " I'll show you!") with which one master once allegedly cut his opponent in half.
Likely, the influence of a similar Genoese mark was involved. Genoese colonies on the Black Sea imported blades to Circassians.
I have yet to encounter a Caucasian blade with a linear orientation of multiple Gurda marks.
I would really appreciate a reference.

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2007, 03:17 AM

Hi Ariel,
The Ashkabov book is an excellent reference, and this is exactly where I saw illustrations of these blades, which I had actually seen on a Khevsur sword.
Interesting on the term 'gurda', which I have been under the impression simply is a term used to denote high quality or valued blade, and as you note the etymology is unclear.

The 'Kaldam' sword, apparantly referring generally to certain swords used by Chechens and Khevsurs, and noting the 'gurda' blades, is described in Ashkabov (p.75) and the illustration of the blade has the linear 'sickle' type half circles the length of the blade along the back. The same blade form, a straight, single edged blade with the same linear motif of these markings, is shown on p.114, as a blade from Ataghi (the example on extreme right).

While the use of these markings as motif is not addressed in the text, it does seem apparant that it did exist on this particular blade form. The Genoan marking, as you note, certainly was copied in many cases, and this did derive from those Genoan colonies. It is interesting how widely these blades were diffused by such trade.

Although it is difficult to see clearly in the illustrations, that these half circles are actually imitations of the toothed half circles, close examination as in the example I have seen did reveal that they indeed were.

Sorry for not specifying the reference. I have seen the same use of this half circle motif on at least one example of an unusual sword blade from India, and I will try to locate that reference. I think it was an auction catalog.

All the best,
Jim

Pukka Bundook · 14th February 2007, 03:57 AM

Well, Much of this is a bit over my head, not having reference books on the subject.
I had been led to believe that Morrocan sa'ifs did not have ring-guards, whilst Zanzibar saifs did, so my logic figured as this had perpendicular projections (Like a chopped off ring guard) this must be a kind of Zanzibar sword.

Also, the Berber saifs/nimchas on the forum here are much different to this one, (no guard at all) Yet both appear to have been used by the Berber people?,
Could anyone enlighten me, and please, excuse my ignorance!

FenrisWolf · 14th February 2007, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Well, Much of this is a bit over my head, not having reference books on the subject.
I had been led to believe that Morrocan sa'ifs did not have ring-guards, whilst Zanzibar saifs did, so my logic figured as this had perpendicular projections (Like a chopped off ring guard) this must be a kind of Zanzibar sword.

Also, the Berber saifs/nimchas on the forum here are much different to this one, (no guard at all) Yet both appear to have been used by the Berber people?,
Could anyone enlighten me, and please, excuse my ignorance!

While my own knowledge is limited, keep in mind that when one speaks of 'Berber' and 'Moroccan', one is speaking of a number of different tribes, each with their own identity and preferences as to weapons. One might as well say 'Native American' and expect the Iroquois to be carrying the same weapons as the Apache.

Even within the same tribe there can be a huge variation of weapons. There have been a number of discussions of the flyssa on this board, yet it is a weapon that only appeared briefly in its most recognized form, from the early 1800s through the early 1900s, and that was just the Kayble. How many other variations were carried by the different tribes probably no one will ever know for certain.

katana · 14th February 2007, 11:35 AM

I may be 'digging up' old ground but the 'guard' shape suggests 'Allah'.
Fist pic is 'Allah' , second is the symbol on its side to match hilt of the third picture.

Emanuel · 14th February 2007, 05:13 PM

Nicely spotted, David!

The Acehnese rencong has a bism'allah carved at the base of the blade, so this certainly has precedent. Your observation could be correct, but keep in mind that the form is also derived from one that had nothing to do with "allah". Could be an armourer's aethetic sense at work, adapting existing shapes to new meanings.

Emanuel

Mark · 16th February 2007, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I may be 'digging up' old ground but the 'guard' shape suggests 'Allah'.
Fist pic is 'Allah' , second is the symbol on its side to match hilt of the third picture.

I see the resemblance, but for that matter it also resembles the sacred syllable "Om" (aum):

BSMStar · 15th February 2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The name stamped in the blade attempts to say 'Genoa'...

Jim... You may want to consider "Seiol" (сеиол is Cyrillic isn't it).

It would seem they would have stamped "геноа" if they wanted Genoa. Just a gut feeling...

Jim McDougall · 16th February 2007, 02:35 AM

Thanks very much Ariel

! Much appreciated.

You are right Richard, this is not an Italian style hilt. It is a locally produced hilt with stylized influence believed to derive from early Italian hilts. As I had noted, the ring guards and developing complex quillon arrangements on many Italian hilts may be seen in rudimentary form in many of these sa'if hilts. The influence of these Italian hilts were diffused widely, typically via Venetian trade routes.

BSMStar,
I am not a linquist so I can only presume you are right that this word is not Cyrillic. However, in transcribing words or inscriptions on trade blades or native blades, spelling and letter form are typically anything but correct.
This can often be seen for example on even Solingen blades which sought to duplicate mottos or makers names from other countries. The spellings, letter forms etc. are often incorrect, and as native makers copied from the trade blades, the digression became even more acute.
My suggestion was that this interpretation on this blade simply attempted to mimic the 'Genoa' often seen on certain blades.

All best regards,
Jim

ariel · 16th February 2007, 02:52 AM

I fully agree. No Cyrillic here!!!
It is just a not very literate attempt to imitate foreign letters.
They also imitated Polish, German and Hungarian inscriptions with rather comic results, forged Solingen and Hungarian markings with very local flavor etc.
On the other hand, Europeans exported gazillions of sword blades inscribed "Fringia", a place that, to my knowledge, never existed ( correct me, please!). This was a corruption of Feringhi ( foreighner, European) just to convince the "locals" that they were buying a real import stuff! Come to think of it, not much difference between the two approaches

BSMStar · 16th February 2007, 12:59 PM

I am not trying to assert what is right or wrong… just a consideration (although, the letters are legitimate Cyrillic letters).

Do an internet search for Seiol… it is a real word and a name.

Best regards,

Wayne

14th February 2007, 01:45 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Richard, Sorry to come in on this so late, apparantly I missed it As has been noted, this is a Moroccan sa'if , more commonly termed by collectors a 'nimcha' (thanks very much Rhys Michael for the reference. Actually this is a most interesting example, and as I always implore, please leave it alone unless there is active rust. These weapons were often refurbished numerous times during thier working lives, and sometimes the work of the armorers is amateurish, making it difficult to discern these from the contrived workings of devious collector/dealers. I always feel better presuming the former, and analyzing the example with the state it is in. The blade on this, clearly heavily worked over, appears to be a 19th century military sabre blade, with these markings added by an armorer attempting to duplicate other trade blade markings. Most fascinating is that the half circle (sickle marks) aligned along the blade as motif in linear fashion is seen only on Caucasian blades of the second half 19th c. and typically attributed to Chechen manufacture. The name stamped in the blade attempts to say 'Genoa', the blades which were associated with the origins on the familiar sickle marks which of course are well known seen back to back in a single pair, not used as motif as seen here. This may well be a tribal piece from the Maghreb, the rounded tip on the blade may suggest further into the Sahara where of course, these are seen on takoubas. It seems most likely to be a late incarnation, probably into the early 20th c. While the 'nimcha' is typically considered more of a coastal weapon, in these later times, trade routes and heightened tribal and colonial activity certainly increased the diffusion of weapons. All the best, Jim

14th February 2007, 11:35 AM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I may be 'digging up' old ground but the 'guard' shape suggests 'Allah'. Fist pic is 'Allah' , second is the symbol on its side to match hilt of the third picture. Attached Images

14th February 2007, 02:24 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, I am confused: where does the info about linear arrangement of the "eyelash " sign being in any way characteristic of Caucasian blades come from? All similar markings on Caucasian swords I've ever seen are either single or arranged as an opposing pair. Often, they were flanked by 3 dots on each side, locally called " little bees". This mark is called Gurda ( or Gorda), the origin of which is uncertain and takes about 10 pages in the Askhabov's book " Chechen Weapons". They range from "Gora Da", ie "the possessor of might" in memory of a legendary nameless master from Ayttkhalloi, name of an aul (village) Gordali, name of a master from Gordaloi named Gorda, a word "gura da", ie " owner of a trap" ( teeth marks) or a shout " gurda" ( " I'll show you!") with which one master once allegedly cut his opponent in half. Likely, the influence of a similar Genoese mark was involved. Genoese colonies on the Black Sea imported blades to Circassians. I have yet to encounter a Caucasian blade with a linear orientation of multiple Gurda marks. I would really appreciate a reference.

14th February 2007, 03:17 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Ariel, The Ashkabov book is an excellent reference, and this is exactly where I saw illustrations of these blades, which I had actually seen on a Khevsur sword. Interesting on the term 'gurda', which I have been under the impression simply is a term used to denote high quality or valued blade, and as you note the etymology is unclear. The 'Kaldam' sword, apparantly referring generally to certain swords used by Chechens and Khevsurs, and noting the 'gurda' blades, is described in Ashkabov (p.75) and the illustration of the blade has the linear 'sickle' type half circles the length of the blade along the back. The same blade form, a straight, single edged blade with the same linear motif of these markings, is shown on p.114, as a blade from Ataghi (the example on extreme right). While the use of these markings as motif is not addressed in the text, it does seem apparant that it did exist on this particular blade form. The Genoan marking, as you note, certainly was copied in many cases, and this did derive from those Genoan colonies. It is interesting how widely these blades were diffused by such trade. Although it is difficult to see clearly in the illustrations, that these half circles are actually imitations of the toothed half circles, close examination as in the example I have seen did reveal that they indeed were. Sorry for not specifying the reference. I have seen the same use of this half circle motif on at least one example of an unusual sword blade from India, and I will try to locate that reference. I think it was an auction catalog. All the best, Jim

14th February 2007, 03:57 AM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Well, Much of this is a bit over my head, not having reference books on the subject. I had been led to believe that Morrocan sa'ifs did not have ring-guards, whilst Zanzibar saifs did, so my logic figured as this had perpendicular projections (Like a chopped off ring guard) this must be a kind of Zanzibar sword. Also, the Berber saifs/nimchas on the forum here are much different to this one, (no guard at all) Yet both appear to have been used by the Berber people?, Could anyone enlighten me, and please, excuse my ignorance!

14th February 2007, 05:13 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Nicely spotted, David! The Acehnese rencong has a bism'allah carved at the base of the blade, so this certainly has precedent. Your observation could be correct, but keep in mind that the form is also derived from one that had nothing to do with "allah". Could be an armourer's aethetic sense at work, adapting existing shapes to new meanings. Emanuel

16th February 2007, 02:35 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thanks very much Ariel ! Much appreciated. You are right Richard, this is not an Italian style hilt. It is a locally produced hilt with stylized influence believed to derive from early Italian hilts. As I had noted, the ring guards and developing complex quillon arrangements on many Italian hilts may be seen in rudimentary form in many of these sa'if hilts. The influence of these Italian hilts were diffused widely, typically via Venetian trade routes. BSMStar, I am not a linquist so I can only presume you are right that this word is not Cyrillic. However, in transcribing words or inscriptions on trade blades or native blades, spelling and letter form are typically anything but correct. This can often be seen for example on even Solingen blades which sought to duplicate mottos or makers names from other countries. The spellings, letter forms etc. are often incorrect, and as native makers copied from the trade blades, the digression became even more acute. My suggestion was that this interpretation on this blade simply attempted to mimic the 'Genoa' often seen on certain blades. All best regards, Jim

16th February 2007, 02:52 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I fully agree. No Cyrillic here!!! It is just a not very literate attempt to imitate foreign letters. They also imitated Polish, German and Hungarian inscriptions with rather comic results, forged Solingen and Hungarian markings with very local flavor etc. On the other hand, Europeans exported gazillions of sword blades inscribed "Fringia", a place that, to my knowledge, never existed ( correct me, please!). This was a corruption of Feringhi ( foreighner, European) just to convince the "locals" that they were buying a real import stuff! Come to think of it, not much difference between the two approaches

16th February 2007, 12:59 PM	#12
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I am not trying to assert what is right or wrong… just a consideration (although, the letters are legitimate Cyrillic letters). Do an internet search for Seiol… it is a real word and a name. Best regards, Wayne